Get Everything In Order Right away

Get Everything In Order Right away

Get Everything In Order right away

Caleb Roche

Devin Miller

The Inventive Journey Podcast for Entrepreneurs


Get Everything In Order Right Away

Definitely get everything in order right away. It kind of falls back on the worst business decision I made. Getting everything set up to where you have contracts that are in place. And you have a legal framework you can work off of to give you accountability. Then also give your clients accountability. The thing I wished I had done a little bit differently was I viewed my business in the very beginning as I needed to be a cheap as possible. And just kind of survive. Where I wish I had been I am going to invest all my resources into creating a great contract, getting invoicing set up to where it's reoccurring. Clients can save credit cards. Different processes that I did not do just because I did not want to spend the money that now I am having to spend the money and wish I had done it before.


The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

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 definitely get everything in order right away and like it kind of falls back on the worst business decision i made um getting everything set up to where you have contracts set in place and you kind of have like a legal framework that you can work off of to give you accountability but then also give your clients accountability and so don't the thing that i i wish i had done a little bit differently was i viewed my business in the very beginning because i didn't make a bunch of money in the beginning as i need to be as cheap as possible and really just kind of survive where i wish i had been i'm going to invest all my resources into creating a great contract getting invoicing set up to where it's reoccurring clients can save credit cards different processes that i didn't do just because i didn't want to spend the money that now i'm happy to spend the money and wish i'd done it before [Music] hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i'm your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur that's grown several startups and seven and eight figure businesses as well as the founder and ceo of miller ip law where he helped start us in small businesses with our patents with trademarks if you ever need help with yours just go to we're always here to help now today we have another great guest on the podcast caleb roche and to give you a quick introduction to caleb um so he was uh homeschoo or homeschooled and and his uh in his uh words was a weird nerdy kid but uh graduated from college at 19 with the bachelor's in marketing and went into marketing or went into marketing but i'd always kind of had dreams or aspirations of being a lawyer and actually worked with an attorney that did some work on the oklahoma city bombing while he was doing that found out he hated the law so uh finished up with the marketing um al also i thinking during that period of time did a little bit of studies overseas in europe um graduated got in or got a job offer with the inspire brand um also was doing a side hustle while working there and then part of his uh part of his responsibilities was marketing was doing taste testing and research for restaurants which sounds like a fun time um and then during kova started working from home found that he liked working from home and wanted to turn his side hustle into a full-time gig and uh that started making more money finished up in nba as well and also this uh started in the world of smaller small businesses so but that much is a quick introduction welcome on the podcast jake uh caleb thanks devin appreciate the uh the great introduction absolutely so i just gave the 30-second run-through of a much longer journey so maybe uh take us back a bit back in time to starting out being homeschooled and how your journey started from there yeah so as as you well put i was an already uh homeschooled kid that uh you know not a lot of people wanted to talk to but uh i've become a little bit more social so that's been a good thing uh so i started when i was homeschooled i i was able to take concurrent classes and so um i was able to actually graduate like you said college a little early um and so i went to college and as you said i really wanted to be a lawyer and so um my sister-in-law was an attorney i had a couple other attorney friends and the one thing they said would be really good for my resume would be studying abroad and so i actually studied abroad in manchester england in hopes that it would help my resume for law school and it actually turned out to be a great experience just in general and obviously i'm not a lawyer so uh i assume it's probably not gonna help my resume for law school since i won't be applying uh but those were great experiences and so um i always thought i wanted to get into law and i worked for a criminal law defense attorney and just realized it probably wasn't for me all the researching that you you probably have to do every day i don't know if i can do it um and so i transitioned into marketing and went to college for it kind of did on the side and um really enjoyed kind of working with small businesses when i was in college and obviously i didn't make very much money because i was just starting out so i kind of felt like i couldn't charge them a bunch of money and so that was always a struggle as i was in college was how do i monetize this and actually make this a career um you can't it's not like law where i can go in and start charging hourly rates just based on my education and so um college was a great opportunity for me to go in and kind of start building my client base now let me just dive in and one question on that so you you know you went in thinking you were going to be an attorney what was it and i know plenty of attorneys you know it's interesting because you know i went and i've done the i ended up getting four degrees and one of them was a law degree in other words an mba so i kind of did a few different routes but you know i know plenty of attorneys that go all the way through law school get out of law school and decide hey i don't want to be an attorney or this isn't what i thought it'd be it's not always you know fun exciting where as it is on tv where you know you have a court case the next day you're in court and by the end of the week you've won the case and every you know it's not quite that way but for you what was the thing that kind of drove you to say okay maybe law isn't what i'm excited about and you know what isn't what i want to do and what kind of when you made that determination what kind of drove me towards marketing well so um yeah it was it was kind of a uh probably a two-year decision that i had so um i when i started it was great because i kind of got to see the the fun parts of the wall get to go to like you said cases and go to uh trials and actually see the fun part where you're actually arguing in front of people um and so that had been my initial exposure and then um when i moved down to oklahoma city i was working with um a oil and gas litigation firm and that's a lot of paperwork it was a great opportunity but i realized that there was a lot of paperwork to that and so as i started kind of networking in the attorney community um i met some really great people that i kind of viewed as mentors and so i would try to take them to coffee and just kind of take their brain on you know what are the favorite things about your job what did you hate did you you know are you glad you went to law school are you glad you went into walk like debt for law you know all these types of things and so um i'm a very rich i was i've kind of grown away from it but i was very risk adverse at the time and so i kind of had i started to put the money towards you know if i go to law school go into x amount of debt um can i actually pay this off in a reasonable amount of time and it seems like unless you're really good at managing both a family if you have a family and kind of managing that relationship and the business side of law it seems pretty tough unless you can be kind of a self-starter and so as i'm going through my degree and kind of learning these marketing classes and diving into kind of more of the consumer behavior piece because you know college you start off english 101 calculus you you kind of hate it and you're like why am i in college and then the more you dive in and i don't know if you feel this with law but the more you dive in and kind of see the the different aspects of it you kind of get like oh this is kind of cool you know the consumer behavior it's not just you know putting out an ad it's it's looking at how the consumers react to this and so kind of a combination of holy cow that's a lot of money to go into debt for and you know it seems like it depends on who you talk to but it seems like the career field is kind of getting a little bit harder to get into as it progresses and so i kind of weighed that with i kind of want to have a good family life i don't want to work 100 hours and here i am start with a small business probably working the same amount as a lawyer making way less probably than a lawyer too so i don't know if it was a wise decision but you know that's kind of what brought me to it no definitely makes sense and you know there is a lot that goes into lawyer and you know if you're great at it you can pay off the loans great and depending on the type of law you know it's interesting i think everybody has the idea that lawyers just make tons of money and some of them do and some of them you know if you're depending on the type of law you can make a fairly small amount you're in to death for quite a long time so i think that you know having that all that balance of do i want to do a lot of paperwork is it going to be worth the investment do i really like it and all that definitely makes sense as to why you pivoted to marketing so you do marketing for while you're in school you know you start to kind of get an understanding of it build up a little bit of client base and you graduate and then you wouldn't work for uh one or for a different business right or for a marketing business yeah so what really got me going was um i think was january the first friday of january i was working for a small business and they came to me and um basically let me go on the spot um and so here i am me and my wife had just gotten married we had just bought our first house not even graduated from college and obviously we had some savings set up but we're not you know 50 year old millionaires and so um my wife looks at me and it's like all right what are we gonna do and so um that was the point of when i actually started kind of viewing it as a business and so for for four months until i graduated i knew i couldn't make really any money um working for business until i got the official degree because that's what companies want and so i kind of we kind of limped along with my with my business that i thought was really successful at the time which wasn't um and so i got connected with one of my professors uh my last semester of school and um christine mccluskey is her name she she was a market research she's over the market research of sonic drive-in and she came and spoke to the class and um i ended up getting connected with her after she came and visited and went in for a job interview and actually got um a job working for sonic drive-in in their product research department or consumer insights department um which led to they they eventually got that out around the time that i i joined they were getting bought out by inspire brand so then my job basically moved over from sonic to inspire helping all like all the other brands kind of build consumer validation um which was a really great experience because i got to like we talked about earlier like we learning the um the big budget side of things with the corporation there's there's a lot to it that small businesses don't see and so it was great exposure for me to get to see all the the different agencies that play as they're kind of working together to build products and kind of the the in-depth research that goes into products before they actually get launched that was so incredible now just as a little bit of an aside was it you know was it as fun to taste test all the new products as it sounds because that just sounds like you know fun that you got to hear all the crazy creations they come up with and all the different ways they're doing it was that fun and exciting or is it over glamorized kind of like being an attorney you know it it was a little bit of both so a lot of what we did we got to taste the product before it went on to taste test but what's funny is everyone when i say taste testing they thought it was just me sitting in front of a you know eating a burger with a double cheeseburger you know with this and giving my opinion but the cool part was you know we would go into different markets and work with vendors to actually like have consumers that we picked um test the product and so while we got to eat the product we actually got to program surveys and kind of see what they thought and use different different ways to kind of understand how they felt about a product and so you know that was the fun part about seeing and kind of felt cool because you're in front of this one made one-way mirror so you can watch them eat while while they're filling up the computer and you kind of feel like a private investigator i guess or i don't know what you would feel like uh but then the other part is i probably gained about 20 pounds because we were eating and we have such good products because it's handmade by chefs not just at you know the location so the quality is just so much better that you just can't say no and so by the end of my my tenure i um my face kind of blew out a little bit and definitely had to hit the gym after i kind of stopped working there so um it was a little bit of both a little it was pretty awesome but at the same time it was um it kind of got tiring at times makes sense on all fronts so so now you're doing that and it sounds like you know you're enjoying the job you know give some fulfillment you get to have some fun experiences now how did the kind of starting the the side hustle you know what what prompted that and how did that turn into a full-time hustle so it was kind of a mixture from the the transition from working full-time to a side hustle like from the side hustle full-time was you know me and my wife had been married for maybe eight months at the time and we ended up finding we were prep finding out we were pregnant and so um over the course of kind of right before coveted last year i guess that's almost two years ago um two years ago um in the winter i started kind of pushing hard into my job and so it ended up being a lot of travel um and at that same point my wife and i had just had our first son and so trying to balance you know traveling leaving the airport at 6 a.m going to somewhere getting to a hotel and then at the same time trying to grow my business so i'm up until midnight 2 a.m kind of building strategic plans catching up on emails kind of it was very overwhelming um and then by the time i get home my wife is exhausted because she's been with a baby all day so i you know i'm not going to use the excuse of oh i was working because you know being a mom or taking care of a kid is a lot harder than work um in my opinion sometimes and so um i want i really wanted to be a good father but at the same time it was so hard because i was always gone and so that's where i kind of had this i want to call it like a light bulb moment because i always wanted to grow my business into a full-time thing but i guess it kind of expedited my time frame of i don't like this life i want something different and so that's when i kind of um with covid between the time of the winter of before covet and during covid i kind of had this new inspiration of okay i've got to turn this into a real business i've got to get everything structured the right way and actually create pricing that i've i've gotten a little bit of experience kind of building referrals and so now i can kind of take this serious and so during covid when we got locked down and i worked from home for a year um it allowed me a lot more flexibility after work and before work that i could wake up and i'm not driving now i'm not flying and so i have a lot more time to really grow my business outside of the normal business hours that i had to that i could really build my client base while dedicating all the time i needed to for my full-time job and then december of 2020 i came to my wife and said all right we've made more than i've made on my salary i'm ready to go and so we kind of set a benchmark of hey let's do a couple more months of this and if that happens let's get my two weeks and let's go full time and that's when i really knew that i could turn this into a real business and not just like a side hustle so yeah i think that's definitely interesting now backing up just a little bit just because i had a couple questions you know how did was it when you originally started the side hustle was it because you're working from home or you or was it more of hey i always wanted to do this or how did you kind of get you know what prompted the side hustle initially to get as you were getting going i've always had an entrepreneur mindset i've always thought i wanted to get into real estate real estate investing all the different things that you would think of to be an entrepreneur and so um from the very beginning when i was a young kid i've always wanted to own my own business and so no matter if i was working for a corporation i always knew that i did not want to work for someone my whole life and so it was kind of a an idea of my wife of hey what if you made you could make some extra money kind of get some good experience of kind of getting to work with business owners kind of build a network while you're young and then my initial plan was work for five to ten years get some really good experience and then jump on my own and obviously that was expedited but um you know it was kind of this this idea of i can kind of control my own schedule and kind of do things on my own without at a young age so i can kind of prepare my life and so that's that's what originally got me going was if i can start this now and kind of grow you know in the next five years when maybe people would be a longer life stage than maybe me at the time um i'd have a lot better life in the future for what i wanted no and i think that i think that problems a lot of people you know a lot of people have that hey i want to control my own destiny i want to do my own thing i want to be able to choose the hours now the ironic thing is half the time you get into your own business you end up working as many or a and more hours you know the old joke always goes you know the best thing about being an entrepreneur is you're going to choose the you know the 10 hours which 10 hours you work a day type of a thing so it's not that your hour's reduced but you do have a little bit more control but now as you dive into that you know you make the transition you start out decide hustle you work from home have a bit more time to work on it also start to make more money with it and you dive in you know as you've been now doing that building that for what a year year and a half now how has it gone has it been gratifying loved it great decision wish you could go back to the other business somewhere in between or how's it going for you oh i haven't looked back and don't ever want to look back ever again um so it's like you said it's that common phrase of i think it's the quote goes that um you work 80 hours a week just so you can avoid a nine to f working 40 hours for someone um so obviously i'm still working on the time time frame just because we've grown so much but it has been such a great transition it was very stressful in the beginning because i hadn't set up proper infrastructure for client billing and so i was kind of still working on that when i made the adjustment and i wish i had gotten that a little bit more under control because those first couple months you know you're waiting on a client to pay an invoice and you're like alright this is my mortgage payment i hope this comes through um but as i as we built cash and continued to build up our client load it became much more much more relaxed and allowed me to kind of invest more into my clients instead of invest instead of stressing on my own business and so it's been so gratifying we've we've actually grown we do a lot of obviously online advertising for ourselves um but a majority of our client acquisition has just been based off of referrals because we think referrals are such a great um way to do business because you already have the trust built up with someone and so if they're referring you to that person they have personal experiences and there's less selling that goes on which obviously as a small business you have to sell but one of the worst things that i hate doing is selling um i really love it but at the same time it's i hate feeling slimy or i never want to and so that that combination of how do i sell someone and make money but at the same time make sure it benefits them it's just a weird concept and so um we've really focused on customer experience and building out kind of great great great client experiences and so that way we can foster referrals and so we've gotten referrals from small businesses we've gotten a couple of big international clients which has been something that i would have never imagined in this first couple of years um and so it's been a great great experience there's a lot of learning as i'm probably sure you know with starting a business and your extensive experience there's always the days that you wake up and you wonder why you started it and then the next day you wake up and you say man i don't even know why i had that thought so uh absolutely there's plenty and sometimes it's within the same hour of the same day here oh this is great and i love it and then you get a client that calls you and gets mad at you and tells you all the things that you've done wrong and why why you should change all these things and it's a horrible day and then you wait till later and you say oh i still love it so there's there's kind of all those feelings so i definitely agree and get that so well now as we've kind of taken a bit to you know where you started all the way up to where you're at today great transition to talk or to go over the last or the two questions always asked at the end of each podcast we'll jump to those now so the first question i always ask is along your journey what was the worst business decision you ever made and what did you learn from it all right this is gonna be a good one so the the worst business decision that i made was being too lenient on client payments um so obviously when i first started and we started transitioning to a different model but when we first started i was barely charging anything for for business owners and so not only am i barely charging anything or getting any money um i really didn't have a set contract set up i mean i had contracts set up but i didn't follow them 100 on the payment side and so if a client you know small businesses it gets personal and so if you know someone's really financially struggling there's a lot that we put into our business that goes into our clients and so we have a lot we have overhead and so what i would do is oh you can't pay this month it's fine just pay whenever um and obviously you can't be too much of a stickler and not build client experiences but you have to get paid and so one of the worst business decisions that i made was letting clients get so like getting letting them get behind to where i'm not making any money and it's hurting my family um and not being fully upfront about that with those clients of hey you're struggling and i get it but now you're causing me to struggle because i'm i'm holding back all these payments and so it led for a world of hurt on my side of a lot of regret on man i wish i had done something different but obviously you can't go back um well i think that that's you know that's always on the one hand it's an easy mistake to make you know that's why i didn't didn't make that mistake you know but it was after watching other people make that mistake so it's kind of along those lines because i work for a firm that you know they would do they would split their payments half and half in other words you'd pay half to get going and then half when you get to file but it just created so much of a hassle that half time you get to the end and they don't want to file or they're having money problems and then you're trying to work it out and those collections and it was creating you know contentious relationship that when i started miller ip law just much more of hey we're just going to do flat fee you know it's going to be a reasonable price you paid up front we don't have to do collections we don't have to chase them it doesn't create that tension and you know if they don't want to do it definitely understand but it's always one of those i think to learn how to do billing and do it right because otherwise you get into that one you're having to chase a thing you're never knowing when you're going to get paid and then you're now it creates that tension in the relationship of it's no longer hey you're providing a service you're running people down to get paid and nobody likes or that experience so i definitely understand that mistake well it's one of those things you know it's it's really hard as you get started and i don't know if it's just because i started with maybe not as much experience as most people do but i had this this i guess feeling that i didn't feel like i was worth it maybe even though i wasn't charging that much and so it was that like i feel like i'm maybe not providing as big of a service if they can't make the money or and so there was a hard part of like understanding my worth and knowing that i'm providing them as much as i can for my service and i'm giving them as much dedication as possible and so it's kind of a mutual respect thing that i didn't understand it that way but that's how i kind of learned it recently is it's kind of a respect thing they're agreeing to terms you're not trying to trap people and if you're doing it the right way it really shouldn't be a problem and so that's kind of how i've i've reframed the way that i think about these things on obviously i'm charging these people but they're getting a service by me and so they should be paying on time absolutely but it's always one that you have to learn because you're like oh if i do a great job people just want to pay me and they'll be successful and sometimes other times you have to say nope i have to treat it like a business and if i'm not making money i can't provide the service for those that can pay and so it is one where you have to make that line in the sand so i definitely get it so now going to the second question if you're talking to somebody that's just getting into a startup or a small business would be the one piece of advice you'd give them definitely get everything in order right away and like it kind of falls back on the worst business decision i made um getting everything set up to where you have contracts set in place and you kind of have like a legal framework that you can work off of to give you accountability but then also give your clients accountability and so don't the thing that i i wish i had done a little bit differently was i viewed my business in the very beginning because i didn't make a bunch of money in the beginning as i need to be as cheap as possible and really just kind of survive where i wish i had been i'm going to invest all my resources into creating a great contract getting invoicing set up to where it's reoccurring clients can save credit cards different processes that i didn't do just because i didn't want to spend the money that now i'm happy to spend the money and wish i'd done it before i had been using template contracts and recently i hired a local attorney here to to do contracts it has been such a game changer they my two page contracts went to about 14 pages um and there's a lot of protection in there that i didn't even think about and having those conversations with them i'm sure you have these conversations with business owners they did research so it's like okay you could be you could get sued by x or based on this and it's like well i never thought about that and so thankfully i've been i've been lucky enough to never have those situations where i've had to worry about that but having the protection even having business insurance that's something i did two years ago that i'm so grateful for of having that if i ever got sued that i would have insurance to help cover my my bills those big things are huge and so i wish i had taken i hadn't had such a scarcity mindset towards business and kind of worked towards building from the very beginning and building the systems to where now i don't have to worry about it no and i agree with you you know it is i to give you know starters small businesses slack you know there's always more things to spend money on than you have money to spend as a startup and so you know a lot of oftentimes there's kind of a bit of an evolution to where you try and as you're getting going you try and do everything as much as you can on the cheap do a diy do it yourself use online templates and online forms and i get it and there's probably a place for that because you're saying until i get the business up and going and actually making money i can't put as much money into those things as i probably should because the money's not there but then as you start to get traction you're saying there are a lot of things i really should be doing and doing better and i better get you better get them taken care of and a lot of times i think that having that roadmap for that kind of plan in place that hey i i have to do it this way because i don't have the money but as soon as i hit this milestone here are the things i should get taken care of maybe i should get those contracts updated or i should get that business insurance and i can't do that when i'm only making 10 a month on the side hustle but when i'm making you know five thousand dollars a month then i should starting to reinvest so i think that that's definitely a great takeaway well just as a reminder to the listeners we are going to do the bonus question where we talk a little bit about intellectual property so if you want to hear a little bit more about that stay tuned for after after we wrap up the episode but otherwise for um as people are wanting to reach out to you they want to be a customer they want to be a client they want to be an employee they want to be an investor they want to be your next best friend any or all of the above what's the best way to reach out to you contact you find out more uh best way for me is either through my website that's c-r-o-c-h-e consulting dot com spelled spelled differently than the bug um or they can email me at caleb search consulting dot com again that's c-r-o-c-h-e those are the best methods for me just because we have a little we offer free consultations kind of like you do as well kind of helping business owners before they actually get sold anything kind of understand whether it's something that they would actually need and so there's a calmly link on there that they can actually sync up with my calendar like you have and kind of determine the best time before we go back and forth about oh well two that two doesn't work for me but that works for me so um we offer we make it pretty easy for people yeah i love i love calendar scheduling i'm an evangelist of it just because it makes it easy for people to align schedules without having to go back and forth and alleviate that frustration that's great that you offer that and definitely encourage people to reach out well thank you again for coming on the podcast it's been a fun it's been a pleasure now for all of you listeners if you have your own journey to tell and you'd like to be a guest on the podcast feel free to go to and apply to be on the show two more things as listeners one make sure to click subscribe in your podcast players so you know when all of our awesome episodes come out and do leave us a review so everybody else can find out about all of our awesome episodes last but not least if you ever need help with your patents trademarks or anything else go to grab some time with us to chat well now as we've wrapped up the normal part of the episode it's always kind of fun to shift gears a bit and now i get to talk a little bit about one of the topics that is obviously close to my heart and i love talking about it which is intellectual property so with that i'll turn it over to you to ask your number one intellectual property question yes this might i don't know if this is too big to unpack but um it was on my mind recently so as a marketing consulting firm our clients are creating we're creating assets for our clients we're running these campaigns how can businesses protect their marketing of their assets with intellectual property you know every asset do you create a trademark like what would you suggest from that standpoint yeah you and you probably started to answer your own question i mean breaking it down there are kind of three main aspects of intellectual property patents trademarks copyrights patents are for inventions if you create something that does something trademarks are for brands so something that is you know name of a company name of a product catchphrase logo those type of things and copyrights are more for the creative so photos pictures videos images you know books movies any sculptures paintings those type of things and so usually when you get into marketing you know while there is occasional marketer that we've worked with that's been a client that has created a new marketing system or a new software do something and that gets into the patent side but generally if you're working with clients that are on the marketing side it's usually primarily on the branding side and sometimes on the copyright side or enough of the creative side so most of the time what you're doing with marketing is you're trying to get a brand following you're trying to get brand awareness you're trying to get the name out there you're trying to get people to trust it get reviews all of which are you know things that bolster the marketing and so most of the time you're going to fall towards the trademarks which is hey if we're really focused on creating the reputation for the name of the company you should probably get a trademark to protect that name as you're investing all the marketing dollars to get it built up same thing it may be on a product maybe it's not the the name of the company as much as they just have a great product and everybody remembers you know i don't know what the name of the company is for snuggie but i definitely remember snuggie as a product right maybe maybe the name of the company is i don't know but that's the kind of thing and so maybe you know the snuggie where you're saying hey this is the name of a product or is it more of you know starbucks which is i don't know what name of their you know coffee or muffins or that but i definitely remember the company so the name of the company so you're going to look to kind of see where's the brand that's going to the most valuable part of the brand and then you're going to want to protect it and then sometimes you have that really great image or that great video that goes viral or that just really portrays the company or you know something that and you'll copyright that as well you're saying hey this is you know typically you can't you're not going to copyright every image and half the time they're you know licensed free images that you get from somewhere else but if they have this really great brand image that they take of it then you can do a copyright so that's usually primarily on the trademarks a little bit on the copyright is usually we're going to focus the protection on very nice yeah i've always wondered about that because you know you think like marketing assets and all those types of things sometimes you create some great stuff and do i copyrighted do i trademark it what do i do so that's awesome now i'll answer the question didn't answer which was where i originally thought you're going and i'll just give a little bit of a teaser and probably won't answer it is you know the other thing you always think about with marketing is you know there's a lot of data that goes along in other words marketing companies will do a lot of whether it's facebook ads or google adwords and they'll see which works and what doesn't work and how it works and both for the marketing company as well as for the client you always wonder who owns that data in other words if i decide to leave the company or do bring it in house or do my own thing do i own that data do i own that account or does the marketing and there's equal arguments you can make on both sides as to who owns it but that's something that people should always consider on both sides both on the marketing company saying hey we've done all this work we figured it out we want to be able to maintain that so we can leverage it for other clients and the other hand that cloud customers saying but i paid you to figure that out i should be able to keep my data so that's always just one thing to consider as a marketing company and as a client of the marketing company as to how that relationship works so with that we'll go ahead and wrap up it's a great question always fun to chat a little bit about and again if you or any of the listeners ever have any questions on patents trademarks or anything else go to grab some time with us to chat thank you again for coming on the podcast caleb been fun it's been a pleasure and wish the next leg of your journey even better than the last thanks devin i appreciate it

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