Do Things Differently

Do Things Differently

James Kandasamy
Devin Miller
The Inventive Journey Podcast for Entrepreneurs
3/12/2021

The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

ai generated transcription

i would say three things one is you know work hard second is be persistence right uh third is do things differently from others right a lot of times people want to just do like what everybody else is doing and that's just gonna put you on a normal category right but you know if you look at things like you know where you do things differently from everyone else uh that makes you you know different from everyone else and there's a better chance of you breaking out [Music] hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i'm your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur that's grown several uh startups in the seven eight figure businesses as well as a ceo and founder of miller ip law where we help startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks and everything else related to their business and if you ever need help with anything feel free to reach out to us at strategymeeting.com and we're always here to help now today we've got another great guest on the podcast james and ken or candace samia yes candace amy candace sammy that was close and uh james uh originally uh was from malaysia went i think went to college in malaysia got a double e degree um did a few startup jobs in college and then moved from malaysia to the us and uh in the us was on some i think temporary assignment went back to malaysia after a period of time then came back to the u.s and went uh and went to austin texas and did a full time gig i think worked in the semiconductor industry um for quite a while and then got i think went back to malaysia if i remember and got an mba and they did a few kind of software startups did some side hustles and nighttime gigs and getting it all up and going and then got into real estate and been doing that for the last several years last few years and raising money with private investors and whatnot so with that much as a introduction and uh introduction welcome on the podcast james absolutely happy to be here devin so i gave the kind of 30 second quick run through of uh of your journey but let's start to go back tell us a little bit about being in malaysia going to college there and getting your double e and we'll pick up on your journey from there yeah absolutely absolutely i mean i was born and raised in malaysia right so i did all my entire education over there except for my mba which i did you know somewhat with the in australia right with the university of adelaide as well then uh came to the u.s on a on a manager visa which is called l1 visa for a company here you know there was a need it was an inter-company transition and um when i came here you know i mean i was always i was already coming here a few times before that on a relocation so i really like you know some cities and the us in general right so um before you now before you came into the us you graduated with a double a degree in malaysia and i think you mentioned that you worked a few startup jobs while you're in college kind of as you're getting the double yeah yeah well i mean i mean startup yes while when i was doing degree i was trying to do you know i was selling shirts buy you know buy for what uh ten dollars and sell for like you know three dollar each or something i mean not three dollars maybe less maybe maybe more than that but i can't remember but i was selling shirts i was trying to do my um you know some kind of physics work workbook a while you know while during summer break uh in college and trying to sell that well everybody was enjoying summer break i was like spending my summer break writing a call a physics workbook you know to sell i did pretty well i mean i didn't make money you know but of course nothing big like uh you know but it does make you know 4x 5x income than what i was doing i always like always like to do something to make money but i never understood the entrepreneurial spirits inside me until recently right because even when i was working on uh on a big large semiconductor company while he went malaysia uh i didn't do much uh startup while working because i was so busy working right but when i came to the us trying to do a software startup here you know some webpage and now one quick question so you come to the us was that because you found a job opportunity you wanted to come to the us i want yeah i wanted to come and i had a job opportunity as well it was an inter-company transition right so i definitely wanted to come here i wanted to go to uh i had a few options going to australia going to canada going to the us right so i had all pr's lined up but i ended up coming to the us uh yeah i really want to come here because of the you know how uh capitalism works here right and um so now walk me through that did you did you apply to the job in the us and then once you get accepted you get the the green card is that kind of how you came in yes yes correct correct but but the thing is i didn't apply so this was intercompany right so basically i was in a i was in a company where i had a headquarters in the us and i was in malaysia and you know i was deciding to leave the country to some other country so the option i gave to the current companies and either i go to the us or i go out of the country right because i had i had i really wanted to get out to another country at that time just to change my life right uh there are certain limitations in malaysia in terms of growing and you know how capitalism works compared to you know other countries right so i really want to get out so i had a few options like canada and australia and uh you know usually the current company doesn't allow me to come within the because then everybody will start leaving from you know from low cost jio to a high cost geo right so um but i think uh i made the case you know that my skills are needed at the headquarters here and they definitely had a problem here there was a big problem in one department at which they thought that they can use my skill so it was a mutual understanding that i'm going to come to the u.s uh on a visa or within the company so it's the same company but i came on a visa no one and i know they're interrupting but just have yeah sure absolutely go ahead questions no when you started with that company was it the idea hey i want to go for it i want to go to the u.s or australia other places and so that's why you sought out that job originally in malaysia it was just hey i'm working for this company i see this opportunity why not go for it kind of which order was that well i was already in malaysia and i was deciding to leave the country right so but i thought okay why not i moved to the us within the same company right uh the company in malaysia they don't really support it they're very against it because as i said they do not want like everybody moving from this satellite uh city satellite company to this headquarters because that's the reason why they created all these satellite uh you know uh offices right all over the nation right large companies they set up you know in a lower cost uh geography you know to reduce uh labor costs right and and also to ease manufacturing and also as well so but the thing is you know i had an option right either i leave or i come through the company to the headquarters so finally the company was gracious enough to allow me to come within the company to come to the headquarters right and they had definitely there's a need because there was a job that needed my skill and i wanted to come as well okay so no that makes perfect sense so you decide okay you've got this opportunity coming to the u.s think it'll be a great experience you convince a company you come to the u.s you work for a period of time now how long were you with that company how long did you work in the u.s because i think eventually you went back to malaysia after a period of time right uh no no i did not go back after that i mean in the beginning when i was relocating back and forth i was going like three or four times but uh once i came here permanently i was here permanently so so i've been here almost like 11 years right now in the us so so now you come to the us you work for the malaysian company and how long did that last and kind of what or where did you go to from there yeah it's not really a malaysian company it's a u.s company but they had a base in malays in malaysia so so it is a u.s company uh i was there for almost two and a half years right so i yeah i got my green card within four months because you know i i came on a special visa which is called a manager visa and i'm a malaysian so our visa takes very very quick so now after that you know after you you worked there for you said a couple years or two and a half years or so now where did you kind of transition from there where did you go from there kind of how did what made i went to another another semiconductor company and i worked for seven years there and you know that's where i started you know start venturing into different different uh businesses right because you know sometimes working in one job can be very monotonous and can be pretty boring i mean especially i mean i can't blame the companies right but they can't be doing new products all the time right they can do same product but small tweaks same products small tweaks because if they do new product then they have to test the markets manufacturing complex complexity you know so they can't do that so there's a lot of not a lot of new development that's happening in big companies unless you are an r d even an r d you know a lot of products doesn't really make it to the uh to the sales part of it right so and every time i go for these small small companies i like to go into this small small department which has a lot of problems because i like to solve any problem i don't want to work on a i don't want to go to a department where everything is done right everything is processed and you just go and execute whatever people have created i like to go and create stuff create processes and i think there's a lot of you know probably with the engineering background and the you know and everything else there is kind of that mentality of hey i want to actually grow build do something rather than just hey everything works fine and now we're just kind of in maintenance mode there's something to be said for kind of building and growing something so now you did that for about seven years and then what kind of caused the transition after working for them for uh that period of time uh it's just uh there's a big aha moment when i went to the second company on my first day i was sitting after this is like three years after you know being in the u.s first two years i was busy working you know the third year i went because of the same company malaysia company us company same culture same process so i didn't really feel different but the third year when i went to another company in the u.s which is i'd never been in a different company my entire world my entire life i only worked in one company for 16 17 years and now i'm in a new company right so when i went to that company i talked to my my boss came and sat down with me and he asked me you know how's life and all that and he told me well you're going to be working here for another 16 years because we have all the stock options and i say why is that 16 years well he said well you have three kids and you know college is very expensive here right and and i asked him how much how expensive he is 200 300 when he said two or three hundred thousand per per kid i was like wow really because my engineering degree only cost four thousand five thousand us dollars for entire five years hmm hey that's a great deal absolutely i mean that's like unheard deal over here right here it's like what 300 000 at least minimum hundred thousand dollars on an in-state college right so so i didn't even know that cost so much in the u.s when i came here that was one aha moment i said wow i cannot continue working my w-2 job right because w-2 job it is what it is you have a limited amount of pay rise you have a limited time and you have always have someone working above you you're working for someone so i said okay i need to have another job which can get me some other income as well on top of my w2 job right and and double to job is like okay yeah you have a base pay but you know they have this golden handcuff right where they give you a lot of stocks you know in the next future yes right they give you like five years three so they want you to keep on staying with them it's called golden handcuff right so that you don't really leave right because you always oh my stock is gonna rest or my stuck gonna wear so you don't really leave right so absolutely yeah i mean it's kind of the perpetual hey there and and i certainly i don't fault them for they're trying to say the best talent we're trying to keep on as long as possible they have the institution all knowledge they can get things done and do it well and so there's certainly a motivation but at the same time you're you're kind of always in that catch 22. we're saying okay and a little bit longer after these vests i'm gone and then they keep offering it so you eventually just have to say hey i want to go my own way i'm going to do my own thing and and here we go yeah correct so you always uh i know i'm a bit everybody's trapped in the w-2 job right and that is you know i know that is existing i needed that because i'm very new in the u.s i mean keep in mind i was just only two or three years in the u.s at that time and i cannot leave my job and and go and try to do things on my own so i said i'm gonna do something on my own uh on my spare time so i was trying to do some softwares that i'm trying to do some web pages to do some math tutoring i had that idea every day i worked late hours after work tried to do that at the end i realized i'm not the best programmer out there i mean you need a big resources to do that and i can't do this alone i mean i was not programming everything myself i was doing the concept and i had offshore you know people from uh overseas people who are trying to do programming for me but it just takes so much of work so much of resource to do a really good software right so after some time i saw a lot of new software coming i said okay i'm gonna shut this down because this is not gonna work you know i'm not i'm not that good or i do not know that much of resources or money to go and hire really good programmers to do it in house so i gave up on that and after that we tried to do stocks stocks trading well i had that ego how difficult stock's going to be you know if you're an engineer you're probably really good at mad you can solve this algorithm right so i start reading all kind of book you know candlestick you know line charts all kind of analysis and try to put all that into a context but at the end i realized that stock is actually just playing with your fear and greed there's a lot of truth to it i think there's you know there is some skill involved but even just reading what the tea leaves are what's coming next how the market's going to react how other people are going to react everything else there's a lot more emotion and a lot more you know non-math type of things not man yeah you can i mean i mean unless you're i mean i'm sure a lot of your listeners gonna say well i made money with stock but my question to them is did you make money with your skill or you were just lucky yeah and i think there's combination there's a lot of luck in involved as well as you know some skill and it's hard to delineate out which is which and sometimes it's a combination of both yeah i'm not saying stock is bad definitely not but i'm just saying for my personality because i like to look at my phone with the phone nowadays you can look at every few seconds every movement you can see it right my personality was like i just keep on looking at my phone and i lost all my peace in life right you don't have a piece because stock is so volatile i mean i'm sure people are very good at stock when they do long-term trading and even if they do short-term trading they're probably good at you know they're probably good at something right but i don't know i read uh some article finally after losing some money on stock i read that 98 percent of the individual investors never really make money on stocks and because you know all these investors all these guys play out the small the small investors right so except for the gamestop issue that recently came that was like okay i thought okay because every time i buy stock you know at nine o'clock you buy it and then after that 10 30 start dropping like crazy and i got panning i sell and 11 30 start going back up again and that happens consistently in all the stocks i buy and i know so i know there's big institutional guys playing the you know the small guys out right so i gave up on stocks because give up on stocks so now how did you so you're kind of trying to say hey where am i going to land i want to do my own thing you know i don't want to hit that glass ceiling to where i can only make so much and i can only have so much you know influence type of a thing so how did you kind of land on what you were finally going to build or where you're going to put your money in effort and be successful absolutely i mean i met another engineer engineering manager who said he's buying rentals you're buying once a year i said what is that okay so that's where i started looking at houses right you say buying a rental okay i used to do some flips back in malaysia i mean just one or two flips not a lot but i know real estate appreciates uh if you buy it right and style so he was saying he buys like one house a year and when i did the math you can make like eight nine percent on a normal house with the amortization people pay down the resident pay down you get a good loan thirty year fixed you know you okay that makes sense okay i can do this slowly right i can buy like 10 houses so i say one house can make nine okay i can buy 10 houses right but but i also had very small amount of money i only had 50 000 to start with when i came here because i didn't have any ira i didn't have any 401k when i came here right and and you know where i came from you know the pay was given was really good pay but it was just nice for me to start and every month we just burned through all the money that we make in a w-2 right so i only had like 50 000. so with 50 000 what can i do right then i start researching then i then i found a way to buy a house really really cheap even with 50 000 you can buy like few houses right so i use that method to buy these houses where you buy and you re you remodel and refinanced and you take out your money so you can basically you know buy houses with very very low down payment so that was the method i found and started buying single-family houses and now we are buying apartment complexes after 13 hours we render apartment complexes so in other words you figured out hey okay i've got i think this is a good opportunity i'm going to get into it don't have an exorbitant amount of savings or money i can just invest so start out smaller or slower and figure out what you can do flip those and kind of built it up as you went along is that a fair summary yeah that's a fair statement let's face it of course you need to find a mentor to teach you that right because you know it's not like anybody can do this i'm not saying anybody can do this but you know if you had a mentor you can just have a shortcut because i can just tell you right so i got a mentor and he taught me how to do single family uh rental flips and later on we moved on to apartment complexes so now so now you've got achievement investment group is that kind of built on top of the commercial real estate kind of how did you get into investing for others or building an investment group or kind of how did that evolve well i mean a chief investment group is just uh it's just a name when we started on a single family and you know once we hit like 13 houses we said okay this is too small scale and because on the loan side uh we can get like up to like 10 loans and after that you have to go to commercial loans and it was too much work for single family so we moved on to apartment complexes by buying a pomegranate which is much larger but i you know i didn't have the money as well so i had the single family houses which i built 400 000 of equity but buying an apartment complex you need a lot more than that right so then i realized about something called syndication where you can syndicate money from a group of investors right there is a guideline to a you know five or six b five or six c that's different guideline and i use that guideline to raise money from some of my friends and families to buy our first apartment complex no i think that you know it's interesting how how you you know going through building things and and making it bigger you know takes a bit of time it's always kind of the everybody thinks it's overnight success hey you oh you had the money you invested in one house and now you're you know rich and you're a millionaire and you can retire because you know you just got lucky but i think you know kind of almost antithesis or opposite to the stock market is there's you know there's some skill and work in in in building involving and flipping houses so to speak but all in real estate investing but then it's also kind of a slow growth to really be able to get a you know a sizable portfolio and be able to actually have that income generated so now as you kind of look towards you know a future ford looking a bit kind of where do you see the next phase of your journey heading is it continuing to do more deals bring on additional investment bring out outside people keep it more internal how do you kind of see that going yeah so right now we have like 2 000 units under our management 10 properties 10 large complexes average 200 units per complex so moving forward what we are looking at is basically to go more i mean as we want to buy more because we want to focus on one asset class because all there's so much of nuances right i mean so much of detail so much of you know analysis so much of algorithm to really make sure we get it right but i want to slightly expand it to ground up construction as well where we do you know building from ground up because an apartment complex becomes so expensive that it makes sense to just build one right rather than go and beating and buy something very expensive we would rather just build one so we're trying to go more into a ground up construction we're trying to go more into affordable housing as well um where we can do something called a low income housing tax credit but we have been doing all market rate all the time market rate housing um and we'll continue to do that so yeah keep on buying more deal more efficient we are high we just hired a few really good corporate staffs to come and help us uh one ceo who just came in we have an executive assistant and we have analysts i just hired and uh with all these people that have hired i hope that we can keep that pipeline full of deal coming in we'll be managed because we also manage our asset right so so we're going to keep on doing deals because there's so much of capital looking to place money in real estate right now and it's hard to find deal that makes sense and i just hire all these people so that we can keep on doing deals so we want to grow and you know keep on doing deals no and i think that sounds like an exciting place to be and it's kind of the hey we're going to con we're going to figure out how to expand our reach in additional markets or at least you know have additional opportunities and also just grow the business and make it even more successful so absolutely makes sense so absolutely well as we wrap towards the end of the podcast i always ask two questions at the end of each uh each uh podcast or each episode so we'll jump to those now so the first question i always ask is along your journey what was the worst business decision you ever made and what did you learn from it was business decision i made probably not getting educated before starting um i think my first house i mean i didn't i didn't eventually buy it because i i supposed to get i was supposed to meet up my my mentors the next week but this week i said okay i was so rushing to go and buy deals and i just put one deal under contract without knowing how to analyze it very well and uh you know that deal didn't do well but so make sure that you get educated before doing this kind of uh big deals and i think that that's a it's a good and whatever industry you're in getting that education that understanding i mean too often you think oh i'll be the exception or oh i'll go with my gutter oh i'll do you know learn along the way but you know that oftentimes while it works on television and movies when you get into reality it's no it's very seldom are you just able to wing it and just go by your gut and just try something it's much better i think to do that education part understand what you're doing why you're doing what are the risks can you live with the risks you know what's the downside what's the upside what is the industry and kind of start to answer all those questions and it increases the likelihood of success and yet it's so easy to when you get into a deal or to get into an opportunity to just want to get going and want to jump into it you never do that you know that education piece is oftentimes so critical well as now the second question i always ask is so um if you're now talking to somebody that's just getting into a startup or a small business what be the one piece of advice you give them i would say three things one is you know work hard second is be persistence right third is do things differently from others right a lot of times people want to just do like what everybody else is doing and that's just going to put you on a normal normal category right but you know if you look at things like you know where you do things differently from everyone else uh that makes you you know different from everyone else and there's a better chance of you breaking out uh to reach your goal right and uh be persistent yeah of course you have to be persistent that's you know that's the test of the of the time of the game that's the name of the game right no matter how much you try you have to keep on trying different different stuff until you you know until you hit your goal so work hard is you know you have to overwork everyone else that's that's no choice there because everybody is trying to come up with life or a lot of people coming on live and you want to be you want to really break out um you know you have to you know do the hard work no and i think that that's certainly a great piece of advice and something people should take to heart well as we wrap wrap up first of all just as a quick heads up for all the listeners we are doing the bonus question of your top intellectual property uh question that you have so stay tuned if you want to hear the answer to that but otherwise if you're wrapping up listening to the podcast before they go what's the best way for them to reach out to you to they want to be an employee they want to be a they want to be invest with you they want a mentor they want to be a investor they want to be your next best friend any or all the above what's the best way to reach out to you and connect up yeah my website is achieveinvestmentgroup.com achieve is like achieving a goal ach i eve achieve investmentgroup.com they can come and register on that website to be in touch with me if you want to be a passive investor invest with us i have a lot of engineers a lot of doctors a lot of a lot of business people a lot of real estate people investing with me because this is passive income because we do the main work and they are the passive investors on my website there's a link called invest with us come and click there there's a form fill up that form and you'll get access to my calendar and i would say you know you guys definitely should read up my book it's a best-selling book in amazon and top 15 book by jim cramer the street for real estate investing it's called passive investing in real estate you can get it for free at passiveinvestingrealestate.com passive investing in real estate.com well awesome i definitely encourage everybody to reach out connect up find out more and use the different avenues that you mentioned well as as we wrap up first of all thank you for coming on the podcast now for all of you that are listeners if you have your own journey to tell feel free to go to inventiveguest.com sign up to be a guest on the podcast and share your journey if you're a listener also one make sure to click subscribe so you know when all the awesome episodes come out and two leave us a review so new people can find us last but not least if you ever need help with the strategy or with strategy for your business with patents trademarks or anything else feel free to go to strategymeeting.com so thank you again and with that we'll now transition over for all of the all of you that are continuing to listen and want to hear james it top intellectual property question let james flip the table a bit ask me a question so with that what is your top question sure sure so i mean so if like people like me we're in real estate right so i'm not doing uh you know silicon design or what even though we were doing at some point i was that was my my engineering job right so i know there's a lot of ip protection that we always apply and all that but coming to business side where we have built a brand right like we build a brand like achieve investmentgroup.com right so um and uh how do i protect my brand yeah so real estate so as a quick or 30 second summary there are kind of three different parts of intellectual property there's patents trademarks copyrights patents are going to be for inventions widgets something that does something which typically doesn't apply to real estate although we do have a few real estate clients that have made software platforms or other ways to make something more efficient to do something new you know you think of not this our client but you know an airbnb where that's in the real estate realm but they certainly have a lot of technology and ways they do that that would fall under patents but if you're saying hey we're real estate firm we're really just investing we're looking for good deals then that's typically going to fall more into trademarks which is you mentioned their branding so then the question is is you know what is your brand worth is it one where really everything is word of mouth where everything is just you have a good reputation of people are coming to you then your brand is is is important but it's important for a different reason but let's you know really you're going to look at and say if somebody were to come along knock off our brand copy it or otherwise do something similar is it going to hurt or affect our business if the answer is yes then you're going to say okay then we're wanting to protect our brand and you know love him or hate him one of the top real estate brands would have been donald trump right or trump you know trump with all of his real estate whether he agree with him or not that was a lot of his value in his brand that he built his real estate company was based on the rep you know the the trump brand and so that was where they leveraged it so if you're saying hey we're going to build a big real estate company and however you follow the political state or spectrum or anything else you're going to say we want to build a brand where people know it where they invest in us they know the quality of our real estate they know the quality of our investments then you're going to protect the name with the trademark and so that's where really a lot of your value is is because one is the people you hire the deals that you can find and then the the white reason people trust with you trust you is because of your brand and that would fall into trademark so that's typically when you get into real estate unless you have the technology site or something as an airbnb or something that's driver or analytics or something that's going to be worthwhile otherwise you're going to typically protect or go into branding which would be more in the trademarks got it got it so if if if let's say my brand is trademark right let's say achieve investment groups trademark and one day i find someone using that uh how what do i do i do how do i approach them tell them generally you know you should stop it or do i you know do i get people like you to send them some letter yeah so and when you define gently that's probably a good way because there's different you can be very aggressive somebody you feel infringes your trademark you can just simply go out and file a lawsuit you don't have to do a cease and desist you don't have to reach out to them you can just file a lawsuit one day they get those papers and then you both show up in court and duke it out type of a thing if you want to take a step back at you and say hey i'm not here to file suits i don't want to you know go through that time and expense unnecessarily one is you can always reach out to them and they may not be aware of you or they may be a small individual or they may just be getting started and they may you may be able to find an agreement whether they stop using it or they pay you a licensing fee or something of that nature if after you reach out to them they typically kind of blow you off or they say no i'm going to keep doing what i'm doing i'm not going to listen to you then you have to decide how much you want to ratchet up and you a lot of times that's you know engage a law firm you send a cease and desist letter you put them more on notice put a little bit more teeth behind it and let them know you're serious and then you give them a period of time to decide whether or not they want to respond to the cease and desist they don't aren't legally obligated to but a lot of times they're saying hey they've engaged a law firm i can see where this is headed let's try and i'll take this more seriously if they blow that off then that is where you have to file the law so you have to say okay how much is my brand worth how much are they you know hurting my brand in the sense of saying hey they're a small tiny individual they're not hurting my brand very much at all and it's probably gonna cost me more to go to lawsuit than it is to just let them go then you may say from a business perspective it doesn't it doesn't make sense to invest on the other hand you may say hey we are seeing a a lot of customers that are getting confused or going to their brand because if they think it's us or anything of that nature then you're going to go and you're going to file a lawsuit you can say hey this is costing us tens of thousands hundreds of thousand dollars a year in lost business then you're gonna have to say it's worthwhile to invest in getting them to stop using it so those are kind of your few options everything from nicely reaching out to them all the way to lawsuits and kind of a cease and desist letters in between okay can i ask one more question sure go ahead so let's say on domain name right let's say we have a dot com and someone take the same name put a dot io or dotnet or what right so that can be confusing for a lot of investors i mean a lot of people right so how do you deal with that yeah domain names are they're a bit of still the wild west they're starting to get some case law behind it or some understanding i mean there isn't anything if you don't go get and there's so many now that you can do whether it's dot you know dot io dot edu dot gov dot you know whatever dot a whole bunch of things and so you know typically when you get your domain name you're saying i don't want to spend all the money or it doesn't make sense to try and get everything possible because even if you get all the last.com.whatever then they change one little spelling in it and then it starts all over or they drop one word off or they add one word so it's kind of always that you know popping up and so when a lot of times when you get into domain names if it's simply just a domain name and they're doing nothing else in their branding nothing else to confuse you know nothing else to use your brand nothing else to use the same words or anything else it's typically going to be difficult to just simply stop them from using the domain name other than to just be much better in seo and be able to just simply outrank them such that when people search for them they never find you know their competitors so far down the list that there's never confusion now if they get the domain name and they start using that domain name and it is confusingly similar to yours so now they have the domain but all of their material on their website and everything else is using your brand or similar to your brand then you can still infringe on trademarks so that's generally if it's only do the domain name you probably have there are some avenues but it gets fairly more complex and and more complicated you're better just to compete with them on seo and outrank them but as soon as they start using any of the other branding stuff within their website material or anything else that's when you can kind of engage them even or gauge them further awesome awesome all right well with that james i appreciate the intellectual property questions it's always fun to hear what other questions people have and have the table turned a bit and you guys get asked me questions so appreciate coming on the podcast it's been a great time and been a pleasure and wish the next leg of your journey even better than the last absolutely thanks devin and i hope really i really hope i add value to your audience and listen [Music] absolutely