There is Never A Perfect Moment

The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

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just do it that's it's that's it's literally that simple to me because i think that there is never a perfect moment to try so i think that you know of course we all have like certain you know if you if you have like zero income no saving okay maybe you need to have some sort of safety net in place before you can take that you know take that leap of faith but uh otherwise you know i think that's just just do it hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i am your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur that's also a patent and trademark attorney that helps start us in small businesses and uh today we have another great journey to share with hugo and uh first of all i like the name hugo so that's a it gives you an a plus already and then from there um hugo started his career as kind of a software um engineer and developer and he did that for a period of time um works for a little while got an mba came back and decided he was going to uh go out and do his uh enter into the life of uh startups and entrepreneurship while doing kind of online gaming to combat misinformation so that's a the two second overview of what you do but welcome on to the podcast thank you very much uh glad to be here and uh yeah thank you for this intro i think that was spot on all right so i did the very quick intro and probably massacred it so maybe you want to go through and tell everybody a bit more about your journey and what you're doing and or what what brought you up to today absolutely yeah but uh i guess you covered the the main pieces very well i started my career as a software engineer after studying uh back home in the montreal canada so for the listeners who are wondering what this accent is from well now you know i'm from quebec it's a french canadian accent and uh yeah so i i work in montreal for a few years then move to the bay area and that's why i did this i'm going to jump in because so you five years is a long enough period of time so what did you do for those five years that's kind of the where you're an engineer and developer sure sure yeah i was working in the public transit space for a company called jiro uh so it was quite interesting because i got to do the programming side but also i got to go meet client gather requirements do some training so i got to go to oslo and norway boston chicago because basically my team was in charge of customizing the software for each individual cities because you know you can imagine in the public transit space it's like these are like big behemoth of companies right have so many different rules to put in place so uh and actually that's when i realized that i love the software part of it but i also really like everything else that was related to it so that's why during these five years i kind of transition like doing less and less programming and more and more of pretty much everything else that goes around the actual programming itself um which was actually a great segue to then become a product manager when i moved to the bay area so um that's how i basically ended up doing that switch and and i was very fortunate because i ran into a recruiter here in oakland california went based now and he's the one when i spoke to him you know during the interview process for an injuring job at the time he don't want to realize that hey you know what we have this job called product manager that you might be interested in and i didn't even know the way it was at the time so it was a great fit i feel very lucky that i run into him uh given that you know having these five years of experience as an engineer that was just a very natural segue into the product management stage okay no and i think that that makes good sense so started out as an engineer kind of found out project manager fits your personality fits your situation and also had the opportunity to do was that was the project because you also did the mba right so it was a project that is more recent yeah so uh yeah and when you say project manager there's actually like a like a slight difference between project and product management um because basically the way i always explain it is that the engineers are in charge of figuring out the how we're going to do something the project managers are more about the when you know how we're going to actually execute it in terms of timeline and the product managers are more in charge of the what so so it's like the the when the what and the how like this this trio of people in software development all work together to make things happen and i've always you know liked the product side the most because i think this is the one that has a little bit more you know we need to wear so many different hats basically because we need to be the glue between all these different people we get to make decisions we get to bring new ideas to the table so that's what's really fascinating about it and you mentioned the mba that's that's also a very natural you know set of tools to add for a product manager because we also need to think about the business side of the firm that we're working for so it was just a very natural transition that was super interesting i decided to do that part time so i went for three years uh uc berkeley uh so it was a bit intensive to say the least working full-time then going to school two three times a week but that was great i learned so much met so many different people and um this is really when i figured out that you know i think i would like to be an entrepreneur at some point um because i could see that you know driving a business is what i find super interesting and i actually work on a few different projects which kind of led me towards the one that i decided to focus on since last fall so that was a nice transition so so far this summer i started out as this not just but as a software programmer engineer then you got put more into the product management so that project product management and then uh you did that for a period of time kind of found that you love to do more of the entrepreneur business side you know still and i and i get that in the sense you know people often ask you know kind of if i was because i did electrical engineering as an undergraduate and they say you know and now i'm an attorney and but i also like to do the business side which is why i'd say a serial entrepreneur but far to take all that you know at least especially on the folks of engineering they say well how did you make the transition from engineer to attorney right or lawyers you know most people don't necessarily think those are commonality and i said well i got to the end of engineering school decided i didn't want to be an engineer but i liked engineering and so then i could go be a patent attorney and work with all the cool all the engineers lots of technology lots of what they're doing and so that kind of gives me the good balance if i can get and still work on a lot of engineering and also getting the diversity so a little bit of kindred spirits there but didn't mean to interrupt you so you did that yeah no i get it yeah and i in my md were actually quite a few engineers who were just like you trying to do that transition to maybe you know to go into law or into consulting or business i mean of course law was not the most common in the mba program but it's exactly the same principle yeah yeah so you did that and you decided okay i want to be more on the product management now i want to do my you know build on top that do my own thing so you went to the nba school and kudos to you i said i'd again kindred spirits i worked you know i did dual degrees so i did a law degree and an mba degree at the same time and then i was also working part-time in a law firm and so i get that that's a i've been through that i get where you're at and i i certainly feel for you because it can make for a tough juggle um but maybe made it through the mba program you decide you want to start your own business right absolutely yeah and that and i was thinking that maybe to explain why i picked that business i was um going to tell you a little bit of a story and uh it's actually something that i used during my mba program for one of the classes that we had you know i had some communication classes innovation design and the story was basically about like why do i care about facts because you you explain right like that you know you just give like this two-second summary of how i'm trying to basically improve fact-checking with gamification but taking a step back you know why would i care so much about facts and and i think that like that to me there's like one very good example and i try to keep it short but it's a story that starts a thousand years ago in the past and the story is about how back then people noticed that there was a bright new star that show up in the sky and that star was so bright that he could see it during the day and then after maybe a couple of weeks it started to fade away people were very puzzled by that they didn't really know what happened back then now fast forward to today if you take the hubble space telescope and look at that exact same patch of sky well what we see now is actually what i got tattooed on my shoulder and for people who are just on the audio this is actually an image of the crab nibbler this is uh this picture like i said that hubble took and this is the leftover of a supernova explosion this is a star a very massive star that at the end of its life exploded and now created this leftover like this cloud that's going away with all the different elements into it and the reason why i care so much about that well first i just think this is fascinating that we are able to like look at these things you know we have such advanced instruments and a bit unfortunate that i feel like you know it's not the kind of thing that we learned so much in school and whatnot and people get a little bit i don't know uninterested but there's actually so much more to it because these stars that explode they are the only way where some um some of the heavier elements in our bodies in our planet or form so basically you know like the the iron that's in our teeth the calcium sorry iron that's in our blood the calcium is in our teeth and our bone all of the carbon in us the oxygen in our lungs all of that come from stars that exploded and so basically like to me this is truly like one of the most astonishing facts that we can know about the universe because it it touches astronomy physics chemistry biology yet today you know even with the internet and everything we can learn about we still hear things like fear it might be flat maybe we did not really go to the moon you know like and i don't want to get started into all of these different conspiracy theories but you see what i mean right like to me this is like so fascinating and sad frankly how we can know so much we can have so much knowledge about so many different things and how the universe work yet it seems that it's not making that much progress so that you know this is just one example of course there would be tons of them but that's one of the reasons why i figured you know what like this is what i really care about like i've been like a geek on my life reading science magazines and whatnot and i think if i can't really make an impact that's going to be in that space because i i wish that we could spread more information like this and try to fight misinformation in return because we shouldn't have to constantly prove the same things over and over again right and like this example of the earth being fat i mean this is a bit of a silly one because i i still find it hard to believe that there their people really believe it like you know like they might be trolling or maybe they just want to get attention but there's still like some skepticism right where some people might think that yeah the earth is really flat so i i i'm just trying to figure out you know is there a better way that we can spread information and make it very very reliable so that we don't need to always go back and prove the same things over and over again and then of course ultimately that should also apply to our day-to-day lives right because then that becomes even more complicated right you have you have some news article that comes up about some whatever topic right it doesn't even really matter the point is that like the new cycle is so quick and just so fast that it's hard to figure out okay but what is actually true within these pieces of news that we hear left and right and you know and people end up being like these saddles of information as we know like social media has made it even more difficult to kind of break these walls and try to get more different point of views on certain topics so but but at the end of the day even if we have different a difference of opinion we should always have the same facts at hand and that that's why you know i really care about this i want to try to find ways to make it better and make it more fun also because it can become a little bit dry right like it's a it's a little bit tedious too not everybody has the time to go online and try to figure out oh is my source of information truly correct or not you know am i am i being lied to am i being biased without realizing it but again all of that comes back to the idea that if we have the facts at you know at its core then these facts are going to help us build proper opinions and also be a bit more aware when we hear something that doesn't sound quite right you know to kind of develop that intuition that well wait a minute you know i've i've did the research on that topic and i i know that certain things that are absolutely correct so if i hear some piece of news that contradicts some of these elements but i know right away that there's something up right so if i dive in and say so because we've kind of almost jumped over and for the listeners what does you know gamification because we talk kind of about gamification about misinformation and that's kind of where you wanted to put your startup both spread good information and also for misinformation or information that's only partially true or actually not true or whatnot be able to correct that or to provide you know a source a better truth and so so what you know maybe if you give what is the how do you go about making a business around that right one thing is you know the importance of information and you know important to be able to share correct information but how do you as i said how do you build a business around that or make that into a business absolutely yeah this is a big challenge obviously and so i think there are tons of different ways of doing it the way that i'm trying to approach it right now is um there's quite a lot of different angles but like i mentioned the idea is to build a game around it so that's the first pillar and the gamification aspect of it is that i want to have as many people as possible come in and make it fun for them to try to figure it out figure out what is true or not but obviously like okay but how are we going to make that happen right because if it's just like a bunch of people trying to figure it out that's not necessarily going to be great so that's why the second pillar of the game is also a training tool because i want to make sure that there's a process in place all right just to dive in so making sure how do you make that into a game like you know that's probably the still first question i mean i get online video games i go on and although i'm not a big gamer you know i used to play like when i was a kid mario kart or you know luigi and mario and super mario and those type of things or i remember duck hunting some of those which that you know dates me a bit um but you know i get those game but how do you make misinformation a game or finding the truth of information how do you make that into a game you know that people are going to want to engage with or what's right first of all i need to you know be humble and you know admit that i've not figured it all out completely yet it's still very new but some of the the main principles basically is that first i want to start with something about like sorting so that's that's just one small example but the idea is that you you're short some statements for example you need to quickly decide okay is that statement a statement of fact or is it a statement of opinion for example so then you know people can just play the game at first just you know just to kind of quickly try to sort as many statements as possible first so that's just a way for them to kind of train themselves and but because it's a game you know the idea that there is a timer they can get some points they get some badges rewards as they progress through the game and then the idea is that they can actually level up and not be given some responsibilities because there's another aspect of the game where it's also people submitting statements the basically the the users are going to create some of the content it's not just going to be me you know just sending them content the idea is that eventually i want to have people crowd source all of that information that comes in so then the individuals are going to be able to submit statements and then have other people with maybe like some sort of higher up level be able to verify their statements and then as we progress because you know at first it's very simple like i gave this example just now you just sort between something which is objective or subjective but then you can start to add more complexity on top of it uh like the feature i'm developing right now i call them quest so the idea is that players will be able to to form some sort of league then they can start and go on a quest to try to figure out what is true but again i don't want it to be completely free for all because then there's no point and you can just have like some sort of blog and people just talk about stuff i want to make it more organized so break it down into days for instance where okay at first we want to make sure that the problem is very well defined you know what are we trying to answer is it even something that can be inserted in the first place or not so then the players can exchange ideas and try to figure out okay yeah what should be the statement that we worked on and again because it's a game it always goes back to the idea that you know they should get rewarded for what they're doing and the people who are the best performer will will get you know a little badge of honor they might you know everybody likes to see their name at the top of the leaderboard right at the very least and if i already just built that just having some sort of point system where the people who contribute the most are seen as the ones who have been the best players for that day that week whatever then you know i'm hoping that this is going to encourage people to want to participate and be good citizen as part of that game so far to almost if i were to try and break down to my level and if i'm putting words in your mouth certainly stop me i'd almost look at this as a wikipedia game of fight right in the sense because you almost have wikipedia if my understanding of wikipedia which is limited is you'll have people write a wikipedia article right on whatever topic they find interesting whether it's about you know the stars or the explosions or whether it's about mike you know microbacteria whether it's about whatever about the economy or about you know whatever the topic may be but then you'll have people that they're on wikipedia and generally they they don't they aren't paid but they go out and they do it out of the you know kindness of their hearts so to speak then they're going to have people with fact check because you get people like to fact check see if it's true almost has to be submitted and almost in that kind of same sense you're going to have people that you're going to have topics or facts or things that people would then gamify they would actually kind of go out be sluicer in order to show that they understand or know the information they would be the seleucid then would figure these things out in a game type setting and that's where you start to arbitrate the truth is that kind of the right way yeah you're doing a great job at the summarizing it all that's great so you do that so now you're saying okay i've got the the constructs we got the idea we're going to build a game around it we're going to try and make it both fun interesting make it competitive so people are going to want to earn the badges they're maybe you you know fold in advertising you don't fold in advertising but you kind of do those different things so how do you then you know and you yeah you're so long figuring out the process but how do you start to build a company you know how do you identify because you got you know that's a fairly large challenge to tackle on misinformation and that so kind of how did you or are in the process of building a company around that oh yeah that's that's the tougher part i guess of the equation because to build a company and to really scale it that's going to be quite challenging because right now i mean i just started that like full time a couple of months ago so i really need to figure that out but the way i see it it's uh it in a sense it's just like any other software company at least you know like the most boring part of it if i can put it this way because it's really all about building this platform making it as easy as possible for users building more of these mini games i call them so that's just to create engagement and so all of that framework the way i said there's nothing that different from any other software company so that's why it's both easy and complicated at the same time in the sense that you know the easy part is that i i've done it i work at many software companies i know that i need a bunch of engineers i need the ux researchers the designers the product managers the project managers all of these people to work together to build a great product a great platform that then grows into a company but of course the complicated part is that okay but what are they going to build exactly and then that goes back to all you know all of these other questions we asked so far where that's on me to figure that out to really try to make sure that i drive this process in the right direction i have a solid road map of features that i want to add and really make an impact and make sure that we're building the right thing because you know we all have like so many resources that we can spend and you know right now it's mostly my time but eventually as i build this company i need to make sure that we focus on the right things and really build something that can make an impact and and also be pretty quick right because we know that things change you know it could be replaced by something else so i need to be cognizant of that and that's why i'm also thinking about okay what can i do that's really different because i don't want to be just another wikipedia that's fun right i think it should be a little bit more than that if i wanted to be a successful company that can generate revenue and hire people well it needs to be something big and significant which is which is what's different maybe from wikipedia because they they have you know they had such a great mission but it's it's a non-profit right it's it's about you know people coming together and building the second p encyclopedia which is great but it's not necessarily something that people go to to um you know to entertain themselves maybe a little bit but you know it's not something that people would spend a lot of time on so i still need to figure that out because as a business i want to have users come back and really be engaged with the platform and that's going to be you know what's going to really drive the business forward we have all these users that are engaged with the platform and so but i seem to figure that out so that's going to be interesting to uh you know interesting challenges to face just and just an insider hair brain thought because i mean this is a misinformation is where a lot of platforms are having to deal with right and not getting into the political field as far as taking one side or the other but you have you know twitter and facebook and other platforms social media they're trying to figure out how do we what role do we play do we do we try and figure out what is in this information do we leave it up to the individuals and you have you know different companies that have taken different tax right some of them said we're just going to we're just a platform we're not going to figure anything out others are saying no we're going to figure out what's in for misinformation or potentially misinformation and we're going to let our you know people on our platform know that and so would you you know would it ever line up or make sense that you're almost here because and for those that have taken the tactic we're going to try and figure out what's in misinformation would you ever then apply this kind of almost that theory or gamification so that you're getting a larger people or people that are wanting to do game you know via a game or via some incentive system helped you check out a lot of those and get a better engagement there yeah so exactly and i think the way i see it is that that's why i mentioned that the most basic features of the game are just sorting because it sounds silly it sounds very simple but i think that like to me this is one of the big problems that we see with the platform that exists today whether they try to label certain statements as misinformation or not like whether they try it to try to do it or not at the end of the day the big problem is that it's never really clear whether is it is it something that an opinion that we see as bad or dangerous or really good or is it a statement of fact that is actually wrong and and that's what i find a bit unfortunate because you can spend all day labeling differently you know labeling a tweet by someone about you know oh is it accurate or not but like to me that sounds like it's already kind of like skipping a few steps because we should always ask ourselves okay but wait was the person just sharing their opinion or were they actually trying to make a statement about something that is true or not right and and that's where i think that by you know making it very very small at first having these small basic building blocks of food i think that's going to really make a difference and i think that's what's really novel with my approach because i mean the gamification part is kind of a way to engage people but like you know under the hood i think that's where the real trend is because i'm trying to find a better way to organize statements by sorting them properly and really building a new type of language essentially you know i i got it like the truth language um i mean we'll see the name might change like the exact implementation might change but my idea is that i want to find ways where the statements can be really codified very well in software so that we can then build this tree of knowledge with all of the different statements linked to each other but more importantly to really figure out okay but is it a statement of fact in the first place right now you know like because i you know personally i'm all for like you know complete open free speech like people should be able to say whatever they want but the second this is something that we can label as true or false well even if they didn't mean it that way well it doesn't matter it's like okay you said that one thing that maybe you thought was your opinion but that statement is actually something we can verify as being true or not so let's figure that out and and it can be the other way around too because i've seen sometimes you know people voice an opinion and then you know you have some sort of mob like all up in the air you know like oh my god i can't believe they said that it's like okay sure like maybe i agree or disagree with them but the point is that was it really something factual because if it's not i mean i don't care you know if someone just okay the opinion might sound horrible but that's okay it's their opinion i mean if it's a politician well just don't vote for them no but i think that you you point out a good thing i think oftentimes people tend to overlook which is you know there is a difference between trying to make a statement of fact you know sky is blue i'm gonna i'd say that as a definitive statement of fact versus you know i think and i'll pick him miley cyrus and i really don't listen to my recital miley cyrus is the best singer ever right one is i'm saying a statement of fact the other one's my opinion even though i'm not at biola miley cyrus i was the first one to happen to pop in my head for whatever um so you do that and i think you're right in the sense that you know some of these are opinions and you just say this is my opinion to my thoughts on the issue and they're much different than i'm trying to make a statement of fact that people are either you know either i'm trying to miss or misinformed people to guide them towards my thought or i'm just trying to make a statement a fact to say hey here are kind of almost now i look at it and have an attorney i'd like to argue or debate you know just as for a matter of fun and my wife it drives her nuts but you know there's a difference you're trying to set the meters of what you're the construct within what your discussion right so if you're saying the packs are you know this happened and this happened you know part of taking the legal sphere you know this person committed x y and z actions are they guilty of a crime or not guilty of the crime okay if we can at least agree on you know steps one two and three that they did then we can then decide okay does that mean that there should be guilt or not be guilty and then there's a much different conversation versus hey it's my opinion that this person's a great person or not a great person so so yeah now that we've now you know that's a fun aside and we'll we'll put it there to the side so with all of that everything in mind next uh you know i think that we mentioned we talked a little about you kind of got a rough prototype working you're building right now you're looking to roll that out in q3 or q4 so how does that when when can people expect to start to see something they can check it out they can get more information and how do they get involved on that site oh yeah that's a good question uh actually well you know i'm not sure i'm comfortable sharing some sort of public timeline yet i'm not quite there at that point but people can definitely reach out if they want to be some prototype testers i have a very easy email address to remember if you don't mind just sharing it with your local right so it's my name hugo at wo f dot llc that's simple because it's the i'm calling the game the world of facts so i created my llc wof so it's that easy hugo at woof llc if you want to say it as a word i realize after being the acronym it's like it sounds a bit like a dog but it's just just one oh w yeah so no i'm looking i mean right now it's still uh it's still close you know in the sense that you know i want to make sure that i polish it a little bit more before really advertising it so that's why there is not like any uh there's not like a website where people can just go and try it themselves you know they need to contact me and i just give the link one by one because i i want to make sure that i test it properly before releasing it but i i get anything close to the point where i was you know i'm hoping that to maybe create a community some sort of blog or forum where people might come and contribute and share ideas and also try their prototype but you know i mentioned this quest uh idea that i'm working on so um i think that might be like the the one big building block that i need to finish before i can release that because to me like the the quest is super important because that's what's going to be the basically one of the ways to prove that it works you know and that's why i might need to fine tune it maybe it's not going to work right away but the idea is that the the goal of the quest is that the players come up with some new statement that they can really feel you know that they can really put like their there's a silver approval on seeing that yeah you know what we did all the work this is true so once i get to that stage where i have like that part of the game that works very well and we can see value out of it i think that's when i'll be able to print it up more to other people and you know have more people join produce content have more moderators verificator people just think for fun maybe it's just people reading the information that they find interesting all that kind of like these different kind of users that could join and look at the system well i need to make sure it's all set up properly before i release it okay no i think and we jumped ahead in this or jump usually i do my two questions before i we we talk about how to get in contact with it but i thought it felt or kind of uh fell in right now is hey because you're right now prototype stage building it up getting it going and wanting to you know figure it out get those beta testers and having gone through software and other companies and that you know those testers can be very beneficial from everything providing feedback to understanding what works and what doesn't work or where things are going to break or what people won't understand so i thought you know it certainly gave a little bit of a plug for people who wanted to get engaged and involved so as we kind of hit towards the end of the podcast um i always ask my two questions so i'll ask them now and you know you you just got started on this latest startup but we can certainly take that you know within the whole realm of of doing work and business and that what was the worst business decision you ever made yeah how was that i was thinking about that because you know you you told me this question will be coming and the uh it's it's tricky to answer because thankfully i don't think i ever made like i mean we all make mistakes but i didn't make like a very big business decision that i really regret but um i was thinking about how like not starting this project sooner i think might be my biggest mistake um because you know i really love the last two jobs that i had at the zendesk and zap labs i worked for one year at each company it was great like i met a lot of people that were really nice and then the businesses were doing great but for me personally like i didn't grow that much within these roles so and all that to eventually get to the point where i decided to you know leave zendesk and start my own company so then you know looking back and and especially because you know basically two years and a half ago that's when i started to think about this idea you know that's why i mentioned that i did the presentation during my mba where i literally discussed that project i mean not i didn't know i was going to do a game at the time but i had this idea in the back of my mind i wanted to work on that project that's something i've been so passionate about so going and you know spending two times one year at you know two different companies that again they're great but that was not really what i wanted to do so i feel like i'm you know i i can only imagine where i would be so i if i had already worked for two years on that and especially during the mba you know i could have because i had the classes already anyway so it would have been a bit more flexible and it was quite tricky to do work full-time and school so maybe it would have been a little bit easier to start that but anyway it's still i still learn a few things in these companies it was not a terrible decision but that's about it fair enough so now i'm gonna i think that nothing that's a good that almost kind of bleeds into the second question but i'll ask the second question anyway which is so if you take the um you know now getting into startups you know deciding to finally make that jumping if it was a bit delayed or you know otherwise wanted to move it forward and do it quicker what would be the one piece of advice you'd give to somebody that's wanting to or just starting out with a startup or small business right yeah no i actually i was kind of blending the two answers at the same time because yeah the because the advice i would give is just do it that's it's that's it's literally that simple to me because i think that there is never a perfect moment to try so i think that you know of course we all have like certain you know if you if you have like zero income no saving okay maybe you need to have some sort of safety net in place before you can take that you know take that leap of faith but uh otherwise you know i i think that's just just do it start because otherwise we're always going to push it to later you know always delaying delaying and and i actually did learn that because i was involved in another project with uh so i had a kind of a i guess i was kind of co-founder for a little while and then i realized that you know that's one thing i learned from this project that things were you know we were anyway without getting into the details the point was that it was like just always a little bit too slow you know it's always like okay but let's just do it you know let's just get that next stage that next step so that's i think that's the best advice i could give just do it so two the two points of advice or you know learn from mistakes is waiting too long and then on the flip side is just do it don't hold off exactly that's why i think they i think they imagine very well yeah so well there's always more things to talk than ever time to talk about in the podcast and so um we reached that point in the podcast but i appreciate you coming on i'd look forward to you know seeing how your crusade against misinformation and how you're going to make that fun and interesting and building the platform around that i think it's a an interesting and a fun place to take so with that i appreciate coming on um for those of you that are interested in telling your journey on the inventive journey um feel free to apply on the inventivejourney.com go to there and you can apply to tell your journey and for those of you that are listeners make sure to subscribe on any of the platforms to hear all the new episodes and lastly uh if you need any help with patents or trademarks feel free to reach out to us at miller ip law and we're happy to help and make sure to get you taken care of hugo thank you again for coming on the podcast it was fun to hear your story and to hear your journey all right thank you very much for your time okay have a good one [Music] you English (auto-generated)