How To Deal With Conflict And Work Relationships

How To Deal With Conflict And Work Relationships

Jerry Fu

Devin Miller

The Inventive Journey Podcast for Entrepreneurs


How To Deal With Conflict & Work Relationships

The clearer and more specific plan you give when you start to notice the expectations slip, the more likely you are to actually act on it. Now you have a clear plan lighted steps forward to be sure that to say ok, I need to engage and, I feel scared and default to comfort and avoidance if I don't have something. If I light this staircase up and I have the exit ramp lined up for me now I am more likely to engage in the behavior I know I need to do for the benefit of me, my relationships, and my company.


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 the clearer and more specific the plan you give uh when you start to notice that expectations are starting to slip uh the more likely you are to actually act on it because now you have a clear plan like you know like lighted steps forward to be sure that to say okay i need to engage and i i feel scared and i'm going to default to comfort and avoidance if i don't have something but if i light this staircase up and i like you know have that exit ramp lined up for me okay now i'm more likely to actually engage in in the behavior i know i need to do for the benefit of me my relationships and my company [Music] hey everyone this is devon miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i'm your host evan miller the serial entrepreneur that's grown several startups in the seven and eight figure businesses as well as a founder and ceo of miller ip law we help startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks you ever need help with yours just go to and we are always here to help now today we have another great uh guest on the podcast and this is an expert episode so um the guest is jerry fu and uh we're going to be talking a little bit about the thing that people always try to avoid which is conflict resolution work or work relationships how to fire someone or how to deal with difficult bosses or employees maybe a bit of romantic relationships and all the things that are always uncomfortable that you're trying to avoid but you need to know how to deal with so with that much is introduction welcome on the podcast jerry hey thanks for having me devin so i gave kind of a quick introduction as to what we're going to be talking about but maybe before we dive into that maybe just give everybody the audience a one or two minute introduction about yourself and a little bit about why you're the expert or why you know what you're talking about yeah sure you know i i tell people i am uh one beggar telling other beggars where to find bread you know it's like i'm not the artful dodger who avoided all the major mistakes that people make in terms of conflict i am the guy who you know uh got my face pushed in the mud and you know decided to figure out how this tastes and how i can get used to it in terms of [Music] how to help others and so the reason some of the things i dealt with i got fired from the job it came to houston four so that was a wake-up call i've had to fire people uh so you know hearing some of the things i used to say before i got fired from other people was uh definitely a wake-up call i've had to evict a roommate that was a fun situation i had to confront another guy when i was a church class director when i found out he was sexually harassing women in the class i had to kind of you know fall on that grenade and so yeah between uh dealing with you know conflicts with my parents as to my career path and you know my own uh romantic endeavors that got shot down you know we all deal with it but uh i believe that in my path to go from being a pharmacist into a leadership and conflict resolution coach that uh you know i've i've been down this road and i want to help people uh have an easier path to success when it comes to conflict resolution well that was a that was a great introduction sounds like a certainly a fun journey and someday another day we'll have to dive into a bit more of that journey um and chat about that um but now kind of diving into you know the the topic at hand which i'll start out with maybe the one that the most that make people or a lot of people probably not me so much i don't mind conflict nearly as much my wife hates it and most of my friends hate it i'm like i like to debate and i like to argue and i don't have a problem with it but for most people conflict resolution in other words especially we'll talk about it within the work setting if you're having marital strife or relationships or that at home those ones will be maybe for a different episode or a different podcast but if you're at work and you're having conflict and this could be usually kind of it i can see it taking a few forms one can be if you're the boss and you're having conflict with your employees another could be if you're an employee and you're having a conflict with the boss and the third one be is if you're an employee having a conflict with another employee but kind of as you're looking to tackle that and kind of figure out depending on the different circumstances what are some guiding principles or how do you start to deal with conflict resolution when you get here get to work yeah yeah the first tip that comes to mind is to realize that conflict never actually goes away and so people think and i used to think this too if if i fired this person or if i wrote this person up or you know i and that's good you have some degree of closure uh that's the first thing is to say okay i'm going to choose closure over my own comfort because if i stay comfortable i'm not the problem won't go away on its own that's really a big problem when people think oh well if i just wait long enough maybe they'll figure out why i'm upset with them that doesn't work right um but to recognize hey you know there's always going to be some kind of conflict uh whether it's healthy conflict or unhealthy conflict that's you want healthy conflict that's okay when people realize hey we can disagree on the why and the how uh you know of of certain things of certain programs or such but then when you have unhealthy conflict when there's mismanaged or unmet expectations uh now you now you have to make some really important and difficult decisions as to whether as maxwell says right do i train this person do i transfer this person do i terminate this person um and too often right we don't like simple answers like that but really there's those are the only three options you have if you're an owner right so let's dive into that a little bit because so i'll we'll go with the first scenario which is the owner you're the business owner you're the ceo you're the founder you know the person in charge or the boss type of a thing and i guess you don't have to always be the owner you could be a supervisor of some kind a supervisor a manager or something but you know the person in charge at least over the employees that has the ability to let someone go to fire them or to try and train them how do you go through and make the determination because you know easiest and some and i don't know if it's easier so i think it's just some degrees is to let them go now it's not fun to let people go i've done it before it's not a fun circumstance you know sometimes it's needed but how do you start to say okay is this a training problem i haven't trained them properly is this a they can't get along with people this is i should let them go or kind of how do you work your way through you know do i transfer them do i let them go do i fire them do i train them or you know kind of how do you work or start to make those decisions yeah yeah i think the first is just to you know i like what brene brown talks about or what other people say when you have to assume positive intent right when you want to say hey you know what they're doing the best they can so that can be taken one of two ways either that's if they're honestly giving the best effort okay well let's show them a little grace and at the same time if they are still coming short of standards then you know you still have to realize if that's if you can't give what you don't have and you can give me five but the job requires ten like i have to let you go right because if you don't meet 10 the company dies right or the company will suffer needlessly so the first thing you know i'm sure you've heard this before and maybe audience you know maybe this is a good reminder right you don't hire for skills you help you you hire for attitude right because you can teach skills right if the person uh as henry cloud talks about in necessary at least he says there's wise people there's foolish people and there's evil people right wise people right if assuming that they are good at what they do and they're competent and and they've earned your trust right if they do something wrong or if something's not going according to plan right all you have to do is just maintain a level of maintenance of preventive maintenance right just say hey here's some feedback and they internalize it they don't take it personally they say hey this my boss is telling me this for my good and the good of the company let's make some adjustments i demonstrate that i've taken this feedback seriously and i implement that and it's done easy enough right i'm going to jump in just i'm going to give you a real-world scenario that i wanted to ask you guys i'm not going to get into the details because i have no idea but we'll give a kind of a generalized scenario one that i've dealt with before so if you have an employee you know i'll say i'm the boss but you have an employee um that has a habit that drives you nuts so it's not detrimental to the company it doesn't harm the company you know it's not it's not creating strife within other workers but it just drives you nuts and you talk to the employee a couple times say hey this needs to change it really bothers me and you know it creates some friction and you know they'll change for two or three months and then they go back to you in the habit and then you'll have a second conversation they change for a month or two go back to the habit and you kind of get to the situation where okay i either have to accept it or i have to let them go or you know you kind of lose hope you know in that situation when you are in the managerial or the boss position how do you start to deal with that circumstance yeah that's a great question and i mean a real life example i'll give you is uh punctuality at my uh my day job and it's like you know where we've been we've been open for four years and yet somehow like you still forget like what time we open or what time is acceptable to be here on time and so this falls into kind of the realm of foolish people i wouldn't say maybe i would call them foolish but it is like well-meaning but ultimately like no follow-through people right it's just like oh yeah i know i need to be on time but there's no follow-through and so with people in this second category right you need to establish very clear and airtight boundaries right you need to give clear consequences for what happens when they cross those boundaries because on one down kind of to your point right is this a pred is this a problem with my preferences or is this a principle problem right like if if it's just this person just has like this really annoying high-pitched laugh and you're just saying well you know i don't i think it sounds smart me when they're talking with customers but they're not actually losing business because of it you might just drop that one right you're just like okay i could split hairs over my preference as to how they should address customers but ultimately you know if as long as they're building good relationships that's not up to me to get in the way of that but if it is something like punctuality and you say hey you know the team is resentful and they're unfocused because you're continually late okay you have to set boundaries to say okay if you are late four times you know in the next five in the next week or so i'm going to write you up and then here are three here are three write-ups uh and then after three write-ups you have probation and probation you know at any point if you just if i decide i'm i'm done with you you're done right flavor just a little bit i think that's great great advice and as an attorney i love to play devil's advocate so we'll take it one step further let's say it's not punctuality where you're not always able to always monitor you know punctuality is a little bit easier you can see are they showing up on time or they're not do they clock in time but let's say they're spending an abnormal amount on water breaks you know where they're sitting around the coffee table you know the water cooler or in the you know break room and they're you know everybody else takes 15 20 whatever the number is you know depending on 30 minutes for lunch break and you know 15 minutes throughout the day and this person's taking an hour break a day you know so it's more than what everybody else has expected but they are a great worker you know they do a good job and they you know everything else you like about the employee but you just have this one thing where like you know they it feels like they're taking advantage in that one area is it one you know so you're kind of caught because you like the employee they do a good job on the other hand you're saying it feels kind of like they're cheating me on some of the time that i should i'm paying them how do you deal with that one yeah no that's a good one i mean the first is just to get curious right right can we assume positive intent to say hey okay well are they still getting work done okay sure all right but yeah let's talk about this to say hey you know i've noticed right that you seem to take 30 or an hour when everyone else is taking 30 minutes you know and they're like well yeah you know i i you know i have extra family issues or things like that and i need a longer lunch in order to doubt about it you say okay well thank you for giving me a clear picture of that and you know what kind of effect does that have what do you think that effect has on the rest of the team right like that so now it's not just about how they're affecting you you kind of shed light on hey how does this affect team dynamics and morale when they see that they feel like you're not pulling your weight because you're taking long lunches oh you know that's ideally you know hypothetically right that's oh that's maybe that's not good because there's some employees in real life they'll be like well i still i'm still fine like i don't know why this is a problem right they're gonna do that and to say could you you know are you willing to you know experiment with the idea of taking a shorter lunch and then dealing with some of these personal issues like after work or before work so that it's not affecting your perception and i mean because the approach i've taken this is real life advice guys like i tell people i'm like look um you know what kind of reputation do you think you've established here right and then they're like well i think i'm you know and then they start to realize oh well i'm not on time a lot and you know i'm not focused a lot and i realize oh you know people say oh you know she's always kind of she's always kind of you know flaky in the head it's like okay well how are you going to change that right like how do you want to affect that change so that people aren't always you know dogging you for being late or you know taking long lunches right and now you start to empower the person and realize hey you know what um i didn't realize that this is how this comes across and to say hey you know what even if you think you're right about the situation how do you want to change things for the better so that people aren't resenting you behind your back possibly for what you're doing so that's no i think i think that's great advice now i'll push one last question then we'll jump right in the conversation let's say you have that whole conversation and they you know and kind of to almost the original scenario they make an improvement you know they do good for a couple months and then you see them oh you know they're starting to take long lunches again and they're kind of reverting back to old habits which you know people generally we we're creatures of habit and you know while you try to make change that's why a lot of times people try diet and then you go back to the old way that you're eating because you enjoy it more right the same kind of thing there is so if you try and you know and then you have a conversation with them maybe a second time you say okay i'll give them another chance you know help them and you know same thing month or two they make the change and then they go back to old habits you know what point is it do you continue to give them the benefit of the doubt versus what at what point do you kind of say okay i've done my best i've tried my hardest as a manager as a you know person i you know i i got to do something else or what do i do here type of thing how do you deal with that yeah yeah and that's in coaching we talk about coaching with compassion or coaching for compliance and unfortunately guys like this is no one likes to hear what i'm about to tell you but you sometimes you have to you have to coach for compliance in this case because it's just to say hey look um and part of it is having not just annual reviews but like quarterly reviews right so you can give this regular feedback to say hey look you know we over the first month or two we were talking about this you've been great with punctuality but then i've started you know you can look at the clock in time so that way subjective evidence to say no you're starting to slip again right or something to that effect and then you can say hey look you know whether you want to tie it into their bonus you know or things like that to say hey look you know i'm going to have to give you a lower score and that's going to affect your bonus right you want to give them consequences when they don't not just from like a like a value-added standpoint with that you can't really quantify right but to say hey look you know um i've given you six months to improve on this and you're still not consistent so now i have to step up my standards uh and to say hey look if you are not on time for the next like two or three months i'm going to we're going to have to go down the write-up and probation path because i've used everything i've exhausted everything else i can to appeal to your innate desire to be a good employee and those are those are no longer working right so you want to play in the space up here first absolutely and exhaust that whole toolbox before you start to resort to um step across this line and you sneeze wrong and you're done right that's those aren't you know and and that's that's the ugly side of leadership that people don't tell you about until you have to do it and so it's like all right guys let's expose this ugly underbelly because uh if you don't give leaders like a real picture of the challenge they're gonna face and real ugly tools to deal with ugly situations um you know they're not going to sign up because you you were lying to them to begin with so yeah no and i think that that you know that that is great advice you know it is one that's hard you know some i've seen some leaders you know just they continue to give them chances and basically just keep up and say well it's i'm i either got to decide whether i'm going to fire him or i'm just going to have to deal with it and then you make that determination as to is are they the value that they provide to the company worth keeping them or is it saying hey this is just creating too much of a issue within the company even if they do great or great work it's having negative error consequences over here some people just say i'm i'm tired of it i'm gonna let it go but i think that there's that i think that's a good balance so now let's switch gears a little bit on the conflict resolution to now if you're in on the employee side and you know if you're dealing with a another employee we'll we'll quit picking on the bosses for a minute but you're dealing with another employee that you do have you know conflicts with and that can be everything from their you know they're you know i i think there's a difference if they're being you know sexual harassing you're being abusive that one's you know that one's a pretty clear cut turn them in you know if they if the company doesn't do something you should probably leave but if it you know if it's not harassing but it's just the employee is you know rude or aggressive or you know belligerent you know something that doesn't arise to the level of you know abuse or you know something along those lines but it's just you continually have conflicts you know they are you you can't get along with them you know everything you do you want to do one thing and they always oppose you and do the other or whatever that is how do you deal with conflicts between employees yeah um oh yeah i could pull from i've had so many examples because basically my my failure was the fact that there are employees who are conflicted diverse they would be upset with you know another employee and they come to me and say hey jerry can you go talk to them about this and i'm just like no like he i made the mistake i basically got caught in putting too many roles on the line and then like they would kind of contradict each other and then they would all get mad at me for being a bad referee and i'm just like no like this is not uh this is not a good system so i would tell them i'm just like okay um let's say if i'm talking peer-to-peer with somebody i can tell them i'm just like hey look uh that's usually the easiest to say hey look i'm just looking out for you right this is what i'm seeing from my side do we agree on a solution uh you know do we agree that this is what's best and it's like yes it's like hey so here are some things i'm concerned about in terms of trying to reach this goal or this result right this one i've seen from you this is how it makes me feel right they can't refute your feelings like i feel hurt when you know you're abrasive in the language you use towards me and other people you know even if you don't mean anything malicious by it um you know can we talk about how to better communicate in a way that people both both sides feel respected right um and so i the question that i'd like to always ask is how do you shift from uh confrontation to collaboration right how do you move from opposite sides of the table to the same side of the table and when you affirm hey we're teammates we're looking out for each other um hey let's like here are some obstacles i'm noticing in in terms of uh establishing a good relationship with you uh let's talk about let me hear from you as well to say what can i do better as well to make sure that you feel respected and appreciated um yeah those are i think those are a lot of fun actually fun for you maybe not for the person yeah yeah i know right no i'll i'll watch one for a follow-up question you get a wide range of people that are willing to deal with conflicts in other words i don't mind conflict i i'm you know i'm an attorney i probably like to argue i like to debate but even there's still conflicts you know even with the need that i i just don't like to deal with you know at some point you've been saying this is still not fun everybody has those points and there's people like my wife that just she hates accomplish she would rather you know put it aside or deal with it or ignore it or whatever because she'd rather not have conflicts and so if you're more on the side that you don't want to hit it you know your tendency is to just avoid conflict to ignore it or otherwise not deal with it how do you work up the you know the guts to do it or whatever you want to call it to actually do a conflict if it really doesn't need to be dealt with oh yeah so what's funny for you is right usually it's the opposite problem where like the wife is upset and the guy's like i gotta hide because i don't want to do it this upset woman i i was saying at work now home is different but at least no no no no no that's fair but well so i mean because i was i'm i was conflict of voice for the longest time just due to cultural norms and things like that but uh the i guess some of the turning points for me and speaking of someone who is tends to conflict avoid like upon first like reflex the first you have to ask yourself is um you know how much longer will i tolerate this like what is the cost of inaction right because if you're already upset right uh you realize that just trying to suppress your frustration and just hope that again people figure out why you're upset with them and fix it on their own unless you say something they're not they're just gonna assume that the default is fine right if a technician types up a prescription wrong and i fix it for them right they're not going to realize that they did it wrong but you know maybe i give them one benefit of the doubt maybe they just had a busy day they just slipped up once it's not a consistent pattern sure i'll fix it in the interest of time or so but if that happens again and i refuse to do something about it now the problem is on me right because i didn't say something to fix the issue so the two initial tips are yeah number one ask yourself um what is my hesitation costing me you know and then number two uh you know or no two and three so two is how where can i find 10 seconds of courage because you don't need to be superman you'll need to like you know get into like superman or wonder woman remote before you finally charge your head you just need 10 seconds to be like hey can i pull you aside for you know just like 10 minutes right you just need to have 10 seconds first to like fire off that text or pick up the phone or send that email and just say hey look i i'd like to talk to you uh third is remember to sell the benefits of this conversation you know um what what what can i gain by having this conversation oh i can reset expectations i can go back to enjoying being around this person again hey okay yeah this is a conversation worth having i'm willing to get past my initial discomfort in order to have this because the closure is is is really uh more enjoyable than just sitting in my comfort zone um i think that's really kind of the bonus tip right there it's just to realize that closure is always better than comfort because yeah when i evicted my roommate for defaulting on his lease i can assure you like the comfort zone i was staying in was terrible uh it is the closure that came from finally get convincing him to move out before i called the cops where i could finally just exhale and just say oh i'm so glad i'm past that right no i i think that's all a lot of great advice so now i am going to switch gears just a little bit to a different you know another kind of related conflict i guess or has the potential for conflict which is relationships of the office you know and how that one can be you know some some companies are oh we're fine if you have a relationship as long as it doesn't bleed into work don't worry about it you can do whatever you want you're adults now they're just saying hey we've had way too many whether it's sexual harassment suits or have had way too many conflicts and people getting mad or employees leaving because they you know they break up or whatever and so you know maybe we'll go from the employer perspective first of how do you deal with relationships at the office should you take a more lenient should you take it more aggressive or how do you how do you start to set that or set those boundaries hmm yeah i think uh it's just there's so much empirical evidence one way or the other but and plus every company is different but i mean so i hate to say it depends but i mean the question is to ask yourself around what if you are a owner right and you have to ask yourself what is your comfort level like what is your instinct telling you right to say okay if i find out that two people you know are starting to date and they're like you know canoodling in like the break room right and instead of getting work done it's like okay no like that's a problem right if you maybe lay clear boundaries just to say hey look if you choose to like attempt to date a co-worker any personal relationship related you know activity or news needs to stay off the clock right like you can have a relationship so long as it does not affect company productivity as soon as it does though and you have to be able to be flexible with that policy because if like two people start to be like break up and now it's all awkward for everyone else in the office it's like okay nope never mind like i gave you that chance uh at this point we are just better off saying hey no dating at all period and if we find out then you know or if that does happen hey what if he's gonna have to transfer you know or move on to another company you know what's that going to be because yeah realistically i haven't rarely have i seen a situation uh where uh personal relationships don't complicate like on on on the clock productivity so that is my personal preference to say hey you know what um i know some every rule has exceptions i'm sure everybody will push back that's like no well she's hot and it's just like well just be honest about that right i want to date her i was like all right man just as long as you know what kind of territory you have to navigate uh but yeah the simple answer is uh probably not just don't deal with fish yeah i mean that's probably i mean it it opens up a pandora's box i mean everything from you know then here same ones ones that one's a supervisor and one's in furry inferior then it opens you up to potential for you know hr problems or for sexual harassment problems even if it is consensual because breakups tend to not usually go well with most people you know especially if your work you sought to see the other person and while it may have been good intended at one point i think it can evolve and shift and then you know it's hard especially if you're in a relationship out things outside of work you know i'm married and even i don't my wife doesn't work with or work for me but even when i have a bad day you know at home with you know when everybody has good days and bad days with a marriage and so yeah but i think that i'm you know it it carries into work and now if you had to do that you know when you're at work and yet at the same time i get people you know attorneys are terrible we work a whole bunch of hours we always you know we we never stop working type of thing we work you know where the office all the time and so you're saying well if i don't date someone in the office you know it's going to be hard to find someone so i do think that to your point it does depend a little bit but i think that there's a lot more potential issues then there are a lot more benefits at least your side i agree with that yeah it's like the you can but you should probably shouldn't that's i think that's the simple coverall answer exactly all right last and this is a fun conversation i could go on for a long or much longer and i'm sure we'd enjoy it but it'd probably go beyond the attention span of everybody else so you can do a part two later it's fine that's right question or one other question so one of the hard things i think that every person that they they think they'd be better at it until they actually get in the situation which is firing somebody or letting someone go and everybody thinks oh you can just tell them you know just fire them just couple them in your office you're not doing a good job and let you go and yet every time you get into it you know especially if they have a family and they have kids and they're or they have a wife or they just moved there or you know they're doing they're not doing well forever you know not doing well financially and everybody i never say there are scenes that when at least people that i've hired that have said oh yeah that'd be easy to let them go they'll land on their feet they have a job lined up it will be fine they won't have any issues and so you know when you do get to that situation what is that if you have made your determination okay i need to let this one go on this for what you know this individual for whatever reason how do you go about letting someone go and firing someone yeah i think part of it is just having empathy for the person that you're about to let go right treating them with dignity and giving them like the the the best case scenario is to say hey look you know at the end of the day you are not meeting expectations whether there is a legitimate reason for this or not uh you know at the very best this job is not a good fit for you because if we're saying these are their expectations and you're only realistically able to meet about half of them like this cannot continue right the cup if we keep you on the company we'll die like if we want to like basically give that trajectory if we only if we settle for people only giving half of what the company knows that it needs to survive uh this company will not survive uh and so the best thing i can do for you is to let you move on so that you can find a company better suited to your needs and preferences and skills right and i mean that's that's the at the very least i mean don't get me wrong that's i probably in my mind i'm just like you know i'm much more frustrated with you than what i'm letting on but that is now is not the time to take cheap shots at you or you know unload my own personal frustration because it is like i know how upset uh my bosses were with me when i got fired and i do my best to remember hey as upset as i am to hear victim statements and blaming and lack of responsibility whenever someone pushes back when i'm upset with them as a boss at the end of the day i need to let them move on to a job that would actually suit their preferences and that's fine hopefully they're out there if they are great if not they need to change but not on my timetable any longer yeah and i think that one thing if you're on the employee side at least 99 of there's probably one percent out there bosses that like to fight people for 99 the boss doesn't want to do it anymore or the manager the supervisor doesn't want to do it any more than the person being let go it's not like it's a fun thing when i've done it you know most of the time as a boss you're saying ah we'll give them one more chance or wait a little bit longer and you try and give them probably more chances than they deserve just because you have sympathy for them and you want to or you know you are a human yourself and you understand their situation and so usually they're coming into dreading it as much as the employee but i think to your point i think where i've come is most time is saying hey there's usually a reason why you're letting them go and it's a lot of times it's because they're not happy with their work they don't enjoy it but you know it's not fair or it doesn't suit their skill set or you know any number of things and it's probably better for them in the long run even though in the short term it sucks to let them know hey you know this this position probably does not fit with what you will want whether it's you don't you know you have aspiration in the future that we're just not going to be able to help or you know or you don't like the job responsibilities or you know your skill sets you you just you know this isn't your skill set you need to find something you're passionate about and i think that that's the least for me is work better if at least trying to go go with the thing of we're we i want the best for you this situation for both of us is not the best for you and so let's see what we can do and then a lot of times i'll say you know if you need help transitioning finding something else i'd love to help you out unless they're just really bad you just don't want to give them a recommendation you know give a recommendation or look at your network or give connections i think is a good way to transition out yup yeah it is and yeah when you just don't cut them and then just say good luck trying to swim in this giant ocean like give them resources uh you know a book i would give now like even to people whether i fire them or not there's a great book called designing your life and even designing your work life as a spin-off just to say hey look how do you create a job in a career that you would actually be excited about right um and then now they you're trying to empower them to realize hey you know what yeah we we have to end this chapter and this is your opportunity to start a new one and it's up to you no and i think that i think that's that's great advice so well we've now er got towards the end of the podcast and maybe we'll have to have you back on part two sometime i think that would be fun definitely a lot more things that we could cover but you know we we've covered there are several different things and you know always at the end of each expert episode i always want to give people at least one takeaway you know listen to this for half an hour and there's a lot of things you could start going most of the time you won't start going or get overwhelmed or anything if you're talking to somebody that's you know the founder co-founder manager boss you know of of a business and they can only get one takeaway one thing that they should be doing today or should get going on today what would that one thing be yeah um i guess for some reason the thing that comes to mind is simply to ask yourself if you are dealing with someone who's underperforming uh what kind of like tripwire deadline do you want to set for yourself uh to say okay if this goes on for you know three months okay i will initiate a conversation like set like script your key uh deadlines and timetables and and key phrases that you want to be sure to address like this the clearer and more specific the plan you give when you start to notice that expectations are starting to slip uh the more likely you are to actually act on it because now you have a clear plan like you know like lighted steps forward to be sure that to say okay i need to engage and i i feel scared and i'm going to default to comfort and avoidance if i don't have something but if i light this staircase up and i like you know have that exit ramp lined up for me okay now i'm more likely to actually engage in in the behavior i know i need to do for the benefit of me my relationships and my company no i think that that's absolutely great takeaway and definitely something people should to take to take to heart so with that as we wrap up if people want to reach out to you they want to be a customer they want to be client they want to hire you to give that you know all the training in the world and be the greatest coach in the world for their business they want to be an employee of yours they want to get trained by you they want to be an investor if you take on investment dollars they want to be your next best friend any or all of the above what's the best way to reach out to you contact you find out more absolutely yes um if you want to connect with me on linkedin i have a profile there that is the one social media profile that i have otherwise if you want to engage with something more professional and intentional my website is there's a free pdf download uh framework for having difficult conversations and you can also schedule a complimentary 30-minute call uh just to tell me about what you're working on or tell me your story or if you have hey jerry i got a situation i need your help with a no strings attached you know just give yourself a free sample to help if that's all you need great if you want to uh invest more hey i got plenty of coaching packages and you know you can figure out what works best for you or your organization all right well i definitely encourage people to take advantage or any of all the above and definitely a great resources as you're building and growing your business or starting your business so well thank you again jerry for coming on it's been a fun it's been a pleasure now for all of you that are listeners if you have your own journey to tell or you want to have your own expertise to share um feel free to apply to be on the pod podcast just go to and apply to be on the show two more things as listeners uh one make sure to click subscribe and your podcast players you know on all of our awesome episodes to map and two leave us a review so everyone else can find out about all of our awesome episodes last but not least if you have if you need uh help with patents trademarks or anything else with your business let's go to grab some time with us to chat well thank you again jerry it's been a fun it's been a pleasure a lot of great knowledge and uh wish the next day of your journey even better than the last thanks devon have a great day everybody you

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