Be Ready

Be Ready

Matt Everson

Devin Miller

The Inventive Journey

Podcast for Entrepreneurs

9/21/2020

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Be Ready

Be ready. It's never as easy as it looks. It's something that you learn to manage time like we were talking about earlier, and you commit to the effort...

 


The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

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as entrepreneurs we always think rightly to some extent that it's up to us to make a decision the buck stops with us we have to make a decision and we have to stick with it hey that's life as an entrepreneur and a leader having said that a lot of times the right decision when you're genuinely uncertain about something is to test the alternatives as an analytics person we tell our clients all the time that the best way to make good market decisions is to test the alternatives to a b test and multivariate tests to test different ways of getting things done [Music] hey everyone this is devon miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i am your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur that's grown several companies to seven and eight figure businesses as well as uh the ceo and founder of miller ip law where we help startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks and uh today we have another great guest on the on the podcast uh gary angel and i'll uh he'll tell a little bit more about himself but to start out with uh he was working in commodities trading for a period of time and did that for a while and then he switched over to a uh a wine company for a bit of time and then he did credit card analytics and then web analytics and uh led him on to where he's doing it today with digital mortar and doing some analytics for brick and mortar stores so um all sorts of uh different uh and uh experience and uh weaved a good journey so i'll let them tell them a little bit more about it but welcome on to the podcast gary oh thanks devin it's a pleasure to be here so i introduced your journey just a little bit but maybe if you want to dive in you can share a little bit more about your journey and uh what brought you to where you're at today sure and and as you said i mean i i i think like you've been a serial entrepreneur i've been an entrepreneur for something like 25 30 years now um through multiple companies uh some successful so i'm not so successful um and and i really started that i think uh largely out of a desire to explore some new business ideas way back when you know i started out as a programmer uh started to see technical opportunities my initial businesses were very much focused on taking things i was working on and trying to build out the technologies around them over time that evolved i got very interested in the analytics side of things um understanding how to do measurement in a business context um i did a lot of work as you mentioned in the credit card industry and that was more initially from a consulting perspective but i eventually started a a consultancy focused on doing customer analytics around credit card and then eventually morph that into a business that focused very much on doing customer analytics around digital and web analytic properties uh spent a number of years on that you know as i look back i think most entrepreneurs have one company that they think of as maybe their most significant company or the company they most identify with for me that was a company called symphonic that was a digital analytics consultancy i spent i think 17 years on it from 1997 up to 2013 um and eventually built that to be the largest digital analytics consultant in the united states that company got acquired by ernst young which was an experience unto itself i have to say i spent the next almost four years at ey as a partner um but i found that you know there were a lot of things off of that because that was a good portion of your of your experience and your journey in that so web analytics first of all if i understand it and you can certainly correct me if i'm wrong web ad and latest would be kind of you could be everything from who your users are to how often or how long they stay on your site to how you know how long they visit to which pages they visit to you know who's converting and where they're located at is that kind of when you're talking about with web analytics and that way that is what it is i mean i think a lot of it's focused on how do you make a web property as friction free uh conversion rich and customer satisfying as possible but those are the kinds of things you look at you look at what kind of content people look at what path do they follow what kind of content actually converts what engages people what that engagement path is and how do you optimize and that that really is what web analytics is so and you started that was it 97 98 or what year was that 1997 yeah so early days of the web so yeah because i mean nowadays it's certainly uh probably more in vogue or at least certainly a lot more use of web analytics in the sense that most you know even most uh website builders or that they'll have some you know minimal form google now has their own google analytics and others like essie and rush and others that give you a whole bunch of insight which you know certainly isn't helpful when you're trying to make sure to convert people but you know back i would say 97 i'm sure that is much earlier the earlier days of the internet so kind of how did you get into that and how did you grow it and then i also you know i remember when we talked you know shooting with a few questions but when we talked here that would be free.com you know.com crash and so how did that how did that weather through the dot-com crash so kind of all yeah that's a really interesting story well i got into it you know i live in the san francisco bay area and i have for a long time i had a lot of friends who are getting interested in the internet and spinning off and doing startups so it was in the air then and i was doing analytics and i had actually created you mentioned briefly i did a wine property and that was more of a hobby business um it was focused on sonoma wineries and it was a website where we sold subscriptions to wineries to get people in and one of the things i realized from that was that it was really hard to know what was going on from a digital perspective if you have a storefront when people walk into your store you know how many people are walking into the store but when you put up a website you literally have no idea what's going on with it you might have a million visitors you might have 10 visitors and you might not know the difference between those two things certainly at the time that i was getting into this most people didn't know the difference between those two things we had to build our own tools for actually doing the analytics there was no google analytics there was no adobe analytics so it started with building the tools for that but that was an interesting process because at the time a lot of people were starting to roll out websites but the selling was very evangelical not only did we have to convince people that they should measure websites we had to convince them they should have a website you know something that's almost incomprehensible today but back in 1997 when i was going out and trying to sell enterprises on measurement half of my cell was why you should have a website at all much less measure it that made it really different um in terms of the dot-com crash that was devastating for our business um you know we we'd grown up to be a pretty substantial business and then when the dot-com crash came i tried to hold on to all those people and we gradually lost them one by one we just couldn't sustain it most of our clients didn't just stop using us they stopped existing um really we had we had only one client that was really that really kept with us through the that the entire time after the dot-com crash and that was american express um we've been doing credit card work for them we've morphed them into a web client we actually held on to them which is what allowed the business to stay alive but the business barely stayed alive i mean we went through three or four years where we really had no new clients we were surviving off one client i had to let almost the entire company go which was probably the single most painful experience as an entrepreneur i've ever been through in some ways worse than just a failed business because it was sort of death by a thousand cuts as we lost clients and i gradually had to cut people it was a really tough time so maybe not to rub salt in the wound by any means but maybe diving into that because because i think it's also pertinent today i mean there's been the dot-com crash but then you know oh 8-0-9 and o-10 whatever whatever it ended you had the real estate crash or you had that and that now people are going through covet so not that it doesn't happen but so how do you how do you know how do you weather the storm how do you figure out how to navigate how do you pivot know when to let people go know when to shut down or kind of how did you make that decision tree and then because i think you said you held on to it and then you kind of reinvigor re-engaged it grew it back up after the dot-com crash and then eventually he's you know ursula to ernst young so how did you kind of navigate through that amidst all of the dot-com crash that it's a great question because it's been very much on my mind actually with covet you know our business has gone through the business i'm doing right now is focused on measuring people in retail spaces um obviously most of our clients are shut down um kovitz had a i wouldn't say apocalyptic but close to apocalyptic impact on our business and i've had to make a lot of the same kinds of decisions and frankly i've been wondering if i'm not making the same mistakes all over again i've you know we've held on to our staff we're continuing to invest in the business um i think that's the right decision but frankly looking back on the decisions i made at the dot com time when the dot-com bubble burst i think i made some bad decisions actually i think uh my my strong inclination and i think most entrepreneurs are this way was really to hold on to staff um and yet in the wake of the dot-com bubble i think it should have been obvious that most of our clients were not going to invest in digital analytics for a long time to come a most of our clients were going out of business so they weren't going to invest most enterprises were not clear sales targets our pipeline fell to zero and stayed at zero for like two years um uh so i think i was really unrealistic i mean i think um looking back on that i don't think that i had the grounds for believing that the business was going to turn around and in the time and the cash flow that i had available to me so looking back on it i think i would have been better off preserving cash and cutting people more quickly i didn't do them really any favors by hanging on to them as we as we as we did that long slow decline um so so looking back and i think that was a mistake um and have been thinking about that because coconut has some similarities there are some aspects to the kobud crisis that lead me to think it's a somewhat different case one our pipeline has not cratered actually the way it did in the dot com time two we've been able to adapt some of our product set to meet the needs that are unique to the code environment something we couldn't do in the wake of the dot com crash i mean nobody wanted freaking internet sites in the wake of the dot-com crash and measurement just wasn't really appropriate to what they were doing we could have morphed into an entirely different business and maybe that actually would have been a good plan you know trying to take our analytics expertise and apply it anywhere but i was really stubborn i really liked the internet measurement i thought it was going to be the future i was right i was just like five years ahead of the time there and i think that was something that i paid the price for we probably should have organically tried to morph into other things with our situation right now there are definitely some similarities and similarities that concern me and make me wonder if i'm making the same mistake all over again which god knows i think a lot of entrepreneurs have done but there are some things that are different i look at the current business environment and i think there's at least a legitimate opportunity for us to sell product and our pipeline hasn't created it didn'tawaken.com so i have some signs of hope that really i did not realistically have um in 2001. okay no i that makes sense so so you did that and so now as we continue on your journey lessons learned so you did the web analytics went or grew that again made it one of the bigger you know biggest consultancies sold it to ernst young and then from there you know did you just jump or did you jump from the ey or instant young over to where you're at now or what was the journey to make that transition after it got acquired and after you may you know work for them for a period of time yeah so i was at ei for almost four years uh running the practice there as a partner that was really an interesting time for me because it made clear some things that i liked and didn't like i'd always felt like for me the most important thing was the work that the work be interesting and that the people be great um eddie why the work was really interesting we were doing strategic analytics for large companies i was working with c-suite folks um i don't think i've ever been as satisfied with the work aspects of things but there were some things that were really frustrating a thousand-person company i often felt like i was this tiny little engine in a much much much bigger boat and uh whether i was successful or not it didn't make a lot of difference you know i could have a great year and ey could have a sucky year i could have a sucky year in ui could have a great year and i never felt the same kind of personal identification with the business that i had gotten used to feeling from my entrepreneurial experiences and that really bothered me i found myself missing that i found myself missing the the connection that i think an entrepreneur feels with the business i also found that it was different with people you know i've been used to working in entrepreneurial environments where we almost had zero turnover you know when i was at symphonic i think over the course of 17 years we lost like two people that we didn't cut from from short-term things i mean the turnover was virtually nil we had immense amount of control over it we went out of our way to make people happy but at a place like ernst young that's not really possible i mean they've got 200 000 people there's a lot of lifestyle demands it's really hard to accommodate people need something special our turnover went from like one percent a year two percent a year to something like 25 or 30 percent a year and and my group actually had relatively low turnover for ui but it was way higher than i was used to and so i was finding that i was really missing the relationships with people um so i started thinking about entrepreneurial again and looking at it you know i considered several different alternatives and types of businesses obviously i've been very successful in the analytics consulting side of things but i'd always had a yen to do a technology platform business and in thinking about it and looking around at what we'd been doing i thought that was a really interesting opportunity to take the kind of knowledge and experience that we built up measuring digital properties and apply them store side where people were just learning how to actually measure customers in physical spaces and get the kind of behavioral analytics that's standard on the website that felt like a really good opportunity to me one that took advantage of all the experience i had but let me do something new too and i think for an entrepreneur that's a really appealing opportunity so what there one question that comes to mind because it almost seems like timing i would have flipped his backwards right in the sense and you can absolutely prove me wrong so and i hope you do so where it seems like retail is going or online shopping is going is online and brick and mortar is having a tougher time adapting and yet you know you went you did the web analytics and the timing of his infancy and then sold it off before it did it and now you're into brick and mortar which is the opposite so how do you reconcile you know is that a different trend are you seeing difference or you think that it's going a different direction or what makes you go towards more of brick and mortar when it seems like things are shifting online legitimately that's something i worry about i think a couple things i'd say it looks like we got or just something with your microphone just a little bit when gargled okay well well i was going to say i think it's a legitimate i'm sorry i think when i look into my business probably the biggest concern i have we got it's still garbled let's pause i'm going to pause it just a second and see if we can get it and then we'll come right back all right so we're back and we had for some reason zoo decided to have a spite of his own which is a platformer used to record some of these podcasts um but anyway we were just talking about just as a reminder kind of now you went to did the web analytics when it was in his early days and now it seems that's where it's moving and rather you know now you're almost jumping back to a brick and mortar where that's a harder one where it seems like those stores are closing or having a difficult time pivoting or that so maybe give an insight as to how you see that evolving or where your place is or you know how that timing works for you it's a great question i think the biggest concern i have about my business and certainly the biggest concern i had going into it was exactly that shift i think we've all seen that digital has been taking share from physical retail no reason to believe that isn't going to continue and covet has actually dramatically accelerated that tendency um so as i look at my business sometimes i have real concerns and even some regrets about that digital is an incredible space to be in it's growing and it's healthy a couple things about why that space why that shift and why that trend first of all digital is a lot more inherently measurable than store you know when i started the digital analytics business everything you do on a website can be measured every click you make every page you view how long you spend measurement just naturally falls out of digital the truth is that until the last couple years the technologies to measure people in space just didn't exist i couldn't have done this business back in 2000 i mean it's true retail was a lot healthier retail was growing in a way that would have been great but there would have been absolutely no way to do this business from a technology standpoint it's only in the last couple years that the cameras and electronics have gotten good enough people tracking to make this kind of business successful it is kind of a backwards journey i mean in some ways it's going from the growing part of the industry to the stagnant part of of of the industry on the other hand i look at physical retail and there's a couple things that i see it's still constitutionality of actual transactions and boy do they need measurement on the digital side is properties are good at this you can go talk to any reasonable retailer um they have really no friction free checkout they've got really nice merchandising they understand the analytics they're really good at it's baked into their dna that is just not the case in physical retail i really believe there's still a tremendous amount of opportunity to optimize those digi those physical experiences in ways that we've seen the digital experiences evolve over time when i first started this business i used to have a slide that showed the difference between amazon in 1996 and amazon today and boy it is night and day different amazon in 1996 was the ugliest it was just a bunch of blue text sitting on a screen it was incredibly confusing it's a website we wouldn't even dream of having today not even the worst retailer in the world today would have a website like amazon in 1995 but i also had pictures of the gap in 1996 in the gap today and you know what the stores hardly changed at all that isn't because now stores were better in 1996 compared to digital properties but i think there's a lot of room for physical experiences to improve a lot and heaven knows you know when i think about a covet and i think about my curbside pickup experiences and my store experiences i see tremendous amount of room for improvement in the operational and customer experience that stores are delivering so yeah in a way i feel like i'm attacking the wrong end of things right now but i also feel like it's where the opportunity is because people have gotten so darn good on the digital side no that's a good point i mean it's probably harder to innovate on the not that people aren't innovating but harder to innovate on the digital side just because it has gotten so good i mean i remember and i i'm a bit of a side hobby but also a bit of you know a lot of the businesses built several websites and you can do everything from you know heat maps to tell you exactly how long people are staying and what they're clicking on and what they're looking at and so you know they've gotten very good on the analytics but almost to your point probably for most stores it's the same as in the 1920s how they you know monitor it maybe a little bit they you know sometimes they have the ding on the door and maybe that's turned to digital but beyond that it's basically they don't know where you know where people are doing and what people are looking at and everything else so i i get that i think that's a good point that you know digital's or brick and mortar haven't gone away and they're still probably i think they've got some hard hard times ahead and evolutions they need to make but they'll probably stick around and what will probably be helpful for them to stick around is to make you know use the the tools at hand to make a better experience like that you do on a digital you know digital friend so that's my belief we'll see i mean every entrepreneurial venture is an exercise in faith and belief and i i do think that's true um but you know obviously we're fight we're bucking some trends at the same time it's not like every trend is working in our favor and when you're working in an industry that's shrinking i can tell you it's definitely a lot harder than when you're working in an industry that's growing grow growth makes sales a heck of a lot easier and i know from my own experience you know going in and selling the clients that are growing is just a lot lot easier than going in and selling to clients that are shrinking and that's certainly something we've had to face so it's a one question because i mean it seems like you can almost go two ways right they could be shrinking in the sense and now they're saying we don't have as much money and so we're not going we don't have the money to invest or it could be almost hey we're desk i don't know desperate but you know desperation or we're needing to do something to change it up so we're going to invest more to make it you know so we can sustain but you're seeing that people are you know more people you think in the camp of hey we're tightening our belts we can't invest or people saying hey we've got to invest in order to let you know stay stay relevant you do see some of each of those things but i'll tell you my general observation has been that desperation does not lead to effective business decisions i i think we've worked with some of those companies over the years that are desperate and trying to change their business but it rarely works it's really hard that kind of turnaround situation is no joke um and analytics tends to work better in fact i think when you're in a growth situation than when you're in a desperation situation so often if you're a sears it's probably unrealistic to think that analytics is going to save you i mean you've got so many bad things going for you you've got so much bad infrastructure so much bad merchandise so many bad sales and such a bad brand reputation that the idea that you can come in and tweak some measurement and change your business just not very realistic on the other hand when you're growing there's a lot of opportunities to do things better accelerate growth and improve efficiency i think what we're seeing in our business right now is that the opportunity is with retailers who are relatively strong they're not in desperation straights um but they're also realizing that they need to do significantly better so you see people there are some digital first guys who are starting to roll out stores that i think get the measurement side of things and really care about the physical space but i think there's also a class of retailers you know that are that are doing really well um but also recognizing that they're starting to come up against the limitations as they compete with digital experiences and they have to do better i find that about half the time in our sales we're actually selling to digital teams that are starting to take over the customer experience store side which i think is really interesting digital's just gotten so good about customer experience that even a lot of retailers with hundreds of established stores are finding that their best customer experience folks come from the digital side now from the store side no i i think that's almost an interesting point because you i you're probably right in the sense that now you're having people that are almost now you're having the digital people that are saying okay we have come up against we've maximized we've really done a great job of making this better but as hard as we talked about to iterate so now how can we expand ours well let's make that kind of digital to storefront brick and mortar a seamless experience and make that a much better experience so that it sounds like that completely makes sense that you know people are that those people are now looking to almost have that kind of up-and-coming type of a you know this is the next place that they're going to expand into so maybe you are in the forefront of of doing that so well there's a whole lot more rabbit holes that we could go down that we don't have time for and so uh because i think that on the technology side there's a lot of interesting things that we could probably talk with but we'll have to say that maybe for another day but as we get towards the end of the podcast i always have my two questions and so we'll jump to those now so the first question i always ask is what was the worst business decision you ever made you know i touched on what i think might have been the worst which is in the dot in the in the wake of the dot-com bubble uh not organically transferring what we were doing as a company and holding on to the people too long and i think both those were mistakes um maybe since i've already talked about holding onto the people too long maybe i'll talk a little bit i think about the failure uh to not try to find ways to adapt the technology and analytics expertise we had to other industries i feel like in retrospect i was unreasonably stubborn about thinking that hey we do website measurement and that's what we're going to do in a market where there was absolutely zero demand for website measurement i feel like looking back on that i should have found ways to take the technology and the expertise we had and apply them that's one thing i think i'm doing in bed i'm not so sure about holding on to other people i do think i'm doing a better job of trying to take our technologies and apply them to the particular problems that covet has created for our business right now um but you know as an entrepreneur we talk about this all the time there's always a trade-off between you want to be focused you want to stay committed to your mission statement but there's also a lot of organic learnings that you just have to be open to i love the web analytics i had really i really found it fascinating um and i think i just wasn't picking up on the hey these weren't faint signals this was the market banging me on the head really hard nobody wants what you've got to offer um and i really do think i could have probably morphed the business more effectively into something that took advantage of what we actually knew really really well um i regret that look at looking back on that experience in the long run it worked out but it probably cost that business three or four years of time when we probably could have been building even more team and more effective analytics so that was i i look back and say that that was probably my biggest mistake i made a lot yeah like any entrepreneur i made gazillions of mistakes and the world's always proving you wrong sometimes you look back on those things you know what i i don't know how i could have made a better decision it didn't work out it turned out to be a bad decision but given the information i had it was a reasonable thing to decide but i think sticking with the web analytics for three years when there was literally zero mark it was probably just a flat out stupid decision so that's that's that looking back on it i i pegged that one as a highlight of really bad thinking in my career all right but i'll jump to your defense in the sense i don't think you're alone i think that people you know sometimes you you have a good idea and it's hard to know sometimes if you just hey i got to hold on a bit longer and the market's going to come back or might hold on a bit longer things will change versus but i do you know versus hey it's just time to move on or time to pivot and so it is that dynamics but i think that generally it is a lesson to learn that you know most of the time nothing is going to stay stagnant things are going to change and learning how to pivot or adapt or you know if there is chaos or change in the marketplace whether it's covid or the real estate market or the dot-com boom and the dot-com bus and you know you have to learn how to adapt when it's a dot-com boom and you take advantage of that learn how to adapt when it's a bus and take advantage of that and you know not take advantage of people but making sure that you pivot off or with their the situation that arrives so i think that's a good uh let a good mistake to learn from and also to grow from so now i'll jump to my second question i always ask which is if you're to take you know something that's just getting into startups just getting into small businesses what would be the number one piece of advice you'd give them i'm gonna pick something measurement focused because i'm an analytics expert right and i'm assuming they can get lots of advice about general business and entrepreneurship from a lot of other people but i believe that one of the biggest lessons that i've taken from my career in analytics is that we do far less testing and experimentation as entrepreneurs than we should as entrepreneurs we always think rightly to some extent that it's up to us to make a decision the buck stops with us we have to make a decision and we have to stick with it hey that's life as an entrepreneur and a leader having said that a lot of times the right decision when you're genuinely uncertain about something is to test the alternatives as an analytics person we tell our clients all the time that the best way to make good market decisions is to test the alternatives to a b test and multivariate tests to test different ways of getting things done because you rarely are absolutely certain about what the right decision is and if you're looking at a marketing a marketing decision about messaging about logo about customer about product my strong advice to people is don't feel like you just have to make a decision think about whether there are alternatives and ways that you can experiment and test in the market and see what works i think that's an incredibly underutilized technology at every level of business but maybe particularly at the entrepreneurial level of business where a lot of times i believe we're overly committed to making a decision um instead of thinking about how can we actually test a decision and find out what's right before we commit our whole business to it so that's a piece of advice i give my clients i talk to my clients regularly about but i think it's a great piece of advice for entrepreneurs too no and i i'd completely agree with that in the sense i think that you know to you can fall into the trap too often that you think you that you are your target marker you are the target clients right and you think that yes i like it if this works for me if you know whether it's it could be a website and oh yeah this website is exactly how i would want it maybe true you may be your target mark but it may be that hey just because you like it this way doesn't mean that others can do it or even in a brick or mortar hey i like these products the way that they're positioned here or this is where people are gonna and it may be true or maybe completely opposite but until you start testing that and figuring it out oftentimes you don't know how you can optimize it and there's always ways to optimize things and make things better so i think that that's testing and figuring out your your clients your target market and how you can always iterate and i think that nothing as we almost talked about nothing stays stagnant so even if it works today if you're not testing it it may not work in a month from now or a year from now and you know as the market shifts if you even if you if it works perfect today and you got 100 doesn't mean that that stays the way it is so it's so true that willingness to that willingness as an entrepreneur to experiment i think also leads to a willingness to admit when you're wrong which i think is also really important and gets back to some of the things we talked about in terms of my big mistakes and mo most entrepreneurs i certainly classify myself in this we believe strongly and what we believe in you know we have passionate opinions about stuff and that's great i don't think you can be an effective entrepreneur without that but if you're honest with yourself you'll also find that even where you have strong opinions about stuff there are cases where you're just legitimately unsure about what the best approach is experimentation is an incredible technique for helping yourself come to the right decision and and know that it's the right decision not just a guess that you've made nothing wrong with relying on your gut but a lot of times when you can rely on the market to give you real answers that's just flat out better yeah no i'm in a complete agreement so all right well wrapping that up so people want to you know they are in retail they want to be in retail they have a store brick mortar store they want to reach out to you they want to invest with you they want to get a job with you or anything else connecting up with you what's the best way to reach out and connect with you you know i uh check out our website digitalmortar.com drop me an email for heaven's sakes i i love getting queries whether obviously like any entrepreneur i love getting queries about people who might want my services but frankly if you're just interested in analytics measurement people counting and people tracking feel free to drop me a line my email is gary.angel at digitalmortar.com i'd love to talk about this stuff and happy to address anybody's interests or concerns or questions all right we'll definitely tell people or make sure that people check out uh digital mortar and uh be able to find out more information and reach out to you and whatnot so well thank you again for coming on it's been a pleasure it's been fun to hear a little about your journey and uh what you get where where you came from and where you guys are headed um for those of you that are wanting to uh to come on and tell your journey on the podcast feel free to go to inventivejourneyguest.com and apply to be a guest on the show and if you're a listener make sure to click the subscribe button so you can get notifications of this episode and all the new episodes as they air and lastly if you need any help with patents and trademarks feel free to reach out to us at miller ip law and we're always happy to help startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks well gary it's been fun to have you on fun to hear your story and wish you the best next uh part of your journey as well as uh it was enjoyable to hear about the last part of your journey thanks devin that was great really enjoyed it [Music] you English (auto-generated) All Recently uploaded

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