Expert Advice - Where Do Your Resentments Lie?

 Expert Advice

Where Do Your Resentments Lie?

Amanda Louder

Devin Miller
The Inventive Journey - Expert Advice
Podcast for Entrepreneurs

8/6/2020

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The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

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i think it's a really key to look at where your resentments lie so if you are resenting your spouse in any area what is that area and that's the area that you need to fix because if there's if you're not having those resentments if it's working pretty well for you then you're probably not you don't need to set as many boundaries but if you have some resentment in certain areas that's where you need to take a look at okay how am i showing up here what do i need to do differently what is the conversation i need to have with my spouse and how we can make this work the best for the both of us [Music] [Music] hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i am your host evan miller the serial entrepreneur that's also the founder and ceo of miller ip law where we help startups and small businesses with patents and trademarks so today's a little bit of a different episode in the sense that most of the time we have um guests on that are going to tell about their journey doing their startup doing their invention and we'll have a little bit of that episode but really today one of the things that we often get you know you know i've been through it and and every i think every almost every entrepreneur has been through it is that you get when you're doing a startup it takes a lot of time a lot of effort it takes a lot of your day out and depending unless you're doing it with your spouse your spouse maybe not involved it can be difficult to have necessarily a strong marriage or you need to figure out what works for you to keep a strong marriage while dedicating a lot of time effort and thought process into getting your startup going so on today we're gonna have as a guest amanda lowder and she is a um certified and let me make sure i get it right sex and marriage coach and we will talk a little bit difference between a coach versus a a therapist and i thought it was an interesting differentiation amanda also had a a bit of an entrepreneurial journey herself she's done a few businesses she's been studied entrepreneurship at byu which anybody that goes to byu is getting my book because that's why i'm almost as well uh but she'll tell a little about her journey and then we'll get into a little bit more of kind of how we can make as entrepreneurs as startups as co-founders and founders how we can make that you know strong and how we can make that um you know how we keep our marriages strong while doing a startup so that was a long intro longer than a normal give as an intro but welcome on to the podcast amanda thanks so much devin i'm so happy to be here with you so we'll get into the all of the great things about how to make our marriages strong how to deal with you know doing a startup and working with your spouse and whatnot but maybe just give the one or two minutes just journey to to give your credentials is to also do be a startup an entre entrepreneur yourself yeah so like you said i went to byu and i studied entrepreneurship there i've had several business over the several businesses over the years some more successful than others um probably the most successful one i had up at to this point was i owned a large digital scrapbooking company in the mid-2000s it was the largest digital scrapbooking company in the world at the time sold it and have done a few other other businesses in the meantime some were great some weren't so great but then i decided to become a life coach a certified life coach and that business is doing really really well so that's kind of where i am in my journey um i thought i got divorced in 2011 and i thought i wanted to go back to school and become a therapist because of how much therapy helped me but then i realized that was a very very long journey i would have pretty much had to redo my undergrad then go to graduate school and then it's like three years practicum and that just wasn't practical for me raising five kids with my new husband so i then i found coaching and thought it was a much better fit for me and so i became a certified life coach and started my business that way and that's been it fits in much better with my lifestyle and with my family and yet i am still able to have an amazing business and career wow that's awesome so with all that as an intro yeah one thing you touched on what give everybody for the idea i've i unders i've heard the term life coach i've heard the term therapist i never honestly used them very much and maybe i should and i hope we get into that but what's the difference between a coach versus a therapist so therapists are really great and they help people who are and they're more functional someone who is doing okay but wants to make things great and coaches them to do it and there's a lot of really bad life coaches out there i'll just be honest pretty much it's not a regulated industry sorry let me jump we had a slow down either my internet connection here so if you just give that one more bite one more time in case it cut out or it didn't make all the flow all the way i'm sorry one more time yeah so a therapist is an amazing thing and it really helps a lot of people who are really struggling in life really in dark places a lot of mental illness and helps them be able to function and do well and i'm a big fan of therapy but a life coach is really someone who can take your life from being good and help you make it great there are a lot of bad life coaches out there that have given life coaching kind of a bad name i think um anybody it's not a regulated industry so anybody can call themselves a life coach but i went through a specific program it was a six-month training that i had to prove that i actually knew what i was doing in certain methods and that's why i'm a certified life coach rather than just calling myself a life coach i actually had to go through a whole process and be trained and be certified in the methods that i learned and i can i think it gives a lot more credibility to where i'm at and then i chose um women's sexuality and marriage as my focus with my practice okay so my two second synopsis is therapist six bet or fix things that have gone wrong or that have gone bad life coaches can make something that's going well even better is that a fair summary for the most part i mean i really work with women like i work with women whose sex lives are really not good and they really want to make them great but they're not they're not falling into the category of like mental illness so that's kind of the distinction that i make there all right so now we take that so we've got a bit of an intro as far as you as an individual your journey as well as kind of the difference between a um you know coach versus a therapist but now let's dive into a few more you know the meat of the conversation so to speak uh you know you take because and you've done it a bit with and you've also gone through divorce you've done you've been entrepreneurs yourself been built a business and so you know you have that background as well but you know if you're to take somebody that's in a startup or a small business and as i mentioned i've done it i've worked with a lot of people i have and it takes a lot of time and effort you know even when you're sometimes at home or that your mind often wanders back to the business and so it's hard to not you know sometimes check out or to make sure you're mentally there with your spouse with your kids and everything else so i'll open it up what would be the what would be a few things that you ways to keep your marriage strong if you're either getting into a startup or you're growing a startup or building a business how can you kind of work to make sure that your marriage stays good as you get into that phase of life well i really think that it's really about where you decide your priorities are i think you know we the business is really important and you want to be able to build that and you want to be able to provide well for your family and so it is very much the priority but if you're making it a priority over your spouse your marriage your children then it's probably going to get in the way and cause problems so really understanding like have your focused time where you're focused on the business and being present with the business and then have your focus time where you're focused on your spouse and your kids and your family and really try to stay present as much as possible now i know we're serial entrepreneurs we're always got our ideas going in our head even though we're trying to stay present with our family having a process for that i think is really important so if you have an idea rather than getting completely distracted and taking that maybe just you know make a note in your phone something that you want to process later and then come back to the present and yeah and i that's one thing not that you've told me but that i do myself and what i usually do and i i think everybody has their own note-taking system one if i'm at my desk i always use stickers which is which is i have my desk and i actually use it as a way because i hate my desk to be cluttered but if i use sticky notes then i have to get them off my desk so it makes me do the project what i'm supposed to do but then if i'm not at my desk i'll actually send myself an email just email myself with the idea so i can then come back to it later when i get back to the office or that but here's so here's the where i think it sometimes gets off track and i'm probably pulling in my own experience but i think it's irrelevant to others is you don't even necessarily intend you know intend for it to get off track or might not be a priority right in the sense that a startup where you're working on your business and something is urgent you know and everything's always urgent as a startup but you know it's always kind of more well i'll make sure to put time with that next time you know i'll put more time for my spouse but i got to get this taken care of right now because it's you know today and right now and some of those other things tend to get pushed farther back right or i should be going to make kids baseball game or i should be coaching or i should be involved and it's not that you don't intend to or don't want to but it's just those are have less urgency because you don't have to deal with them right now and so they keep getting pushed to the back burner so how do you kind of keep those from getting pushed to the back burner well i think the one of the words that you kept using is really key is intention and being intentional with the way that you are thinking about things i know that a lot of things seem very urgent when you are having your own business as a startup but most things don't require that much urgency we just think that they do so really understanding where your intentions lie and being intentional with the way that you're thinking about your family and your business is really going to help you direct yourself in the way i the thought that i always like to come back to is like who do i want to be in this situation and try and show up as my best self in every situation so if i'm being my best self as a business owner is that at the detriment of my best self as a wife a mother you know in that moment what is the most intentional that i can be and i think constantly checking in with yourself learning to check in with yourself about where your intentions lie and who you want to show up as is really the key so and so diving into that bit deeper because i agree it's intentional but how do you actually you know there's a difference between understanding you should be intentional versus actually making yourself for implementing to be intentional right so what are kind of the and i know i'm sure it's different for every person but what some what are some of the ways you can actually start to be intentional or what is some of the things you can implement to be more intentional about that so one of the keys i think is understanding the human brain and i'll just go into some very very basic steps we have a line that is caveman browser brain and its sulfur is to keep you alive and so it does this in one of three ways it does this by avoiding pain at all costs and that's either physical pain or emotional pain and it doesn't really understand the difference and it thinks that you know when you're not doing things that you it thinks you should be doing that you might die and so it tries to offer you thoughts consistently like you have to do this you have to do this or the business is going to die you have to do this or else something's gonna happen and so it's just being on to your brain that it does this the second thing it does is it wants to seek pleasure wherever it can so if you have you know if you're thinking like oh if i do this i'll make money if i do this i'll make more money i'll do this make i'll make more money your brain's going to constantly be offering you those thoughts which is going to get you off track okay the third thing which seems kind of counterintuitive for someone who is an entrepreneur and has a startup is it likes to reduce effort so avoid pain seek pres seek pleasure and reduce effort and the way that it does that reduce effort it's like well you know it's not that important that i spend this time with my wife i can go do the business or it's not i don't have to do this for my kids and it's not that those things are bad but is it where your higher desires your true intentions lie and just being on to your brain that the thoughts that it's offering you aren't always going to serve you and you really have to be more intentional about the way you're thinking about those things no i mean that's three good or three good things and and things to know about how your brain works and how you're being intentional about it so now if i and i know that they all these are topics we could dive much deeper into and so we'll totally do that at some another point in time maybe have it back on so another one i thought was interesting that we talked about was you know involving your spouse to a degree that it makes sense in order to make them feel validated or otherwise in part of the business so maybe if you wanted to touch a bit on you know how you do that validation how you involve them or how that makes sense to have them as part of the business even if you know whatever degree that makes sense is that maybe give a little bit of thoughts on that well i think that's really just a matter of communicating with your wife and for your spouse and finding out how much they want to be involved my husband has no desire to be involved in my coaching business but he very much likes to be a sounding board for me he likes to offer ideas when he has them and i love that so he can still be part of my business and i can still involve him in things without him being in the business but i have to go off of what he wants it's not just about what i want right so if he wanted to be more involved then i could find more ways to get him involved but he doesn't so i'm conscious of where he wants to be and what hit where his intentions are and how i can involve him in oh looks like we lost the video for just a second so you're back hopefully you came back yeah all right i'm getting i'm getting signals that it's your internet so i don't know usually our in and it's pretty good here so i apologize um let me why don't i'll let me pause this for just a second i don't normally do it during the podcast give me the first time pause it i'll see if i can uh shut a couple things down really quick so the internet's uh acts better on my end and then i'll pick back up does that work sure all right all right so everybody we took a brief intermission between both of us the internet seems to want to not uh cooperate so we're gonna keep doing the video if we have to we'll just go to audio only because it's an interesting enough conversation so we're going to rewind just a little bit so i think what we were talking about is you were and my spouse is the same way in the sense that you know and it sounds like your spouse is is that they don't want to necessarily be involved with the business or you know if you ask my wife when i started my first startup and and all the companies i'm at she's not a business person and i don't i don't want her to be and i don't i'm not trying to fit her into that box but you know she would she was she's now just a full-time stay-at-home mom before we had kids she was a nurse and she loved the nine to five me she knew that she'd go to work she'd work do the job come home and she'd be able to set work down because it was you know past five o'clock she's logged out whereas me i'm the i have an idea and i my mind's always going and it's the opposite and so you know when i started my businesses i knew up front that she wouldn't want to be involved i didn't want want her to didn't want to pull her into something she didn't want to be involved with and so i you know we kind of set boundaries and i think that's kind of what you saying sometimes with your spouse you have to almost up front talk about expectations about what we want to do in the conversations and set those expectations on the front end to avoid having issues on the back end is that about a good absolutely segue back into where you left off yes absolutely i think setting boundaries for yourself and what you allow for yourself and then setting boundaries for the relationship and what you allow into that is key for sure and so how do you do and so how do you set or to define those boundaries and so let's say you're you're you know rewinding in time for me or for people that are just getting to startup or small business and saying hey i wanna i wanna get going on this i'm excited about it how do you what what does that look like to sit down with your spouse and say do you want to be involved do you not want to be involved or do you say what are you doing how do you how do you have that start that conversation i think you started it just perfect devon you sit down and say you know what are your expectations about this what do you expect from me what do you how much do you want to contribute and having those boundaries for yourself as well you know sitting down looking at your calendar scheduling out specific personal time and family time and then following your calendar is really key in setting those personal boundaries as well okay no i i i'm in full support of that so now how do you do that no i'm getting to the flip side of you know i said my my spouse's i doesn't want to be involved i've also had spouses that have you know and i've had them on the podcast on other episodes that they were they've i've had one spouse and kudos to them because i think me and my wife would end up killing each other they'd worked with worked with four startups and they were doing they're on their first startup together they've done three startups before that i've had others that if you know their spouse gets involved in different varying levels and so setting those expectations is easy if they don't want to be involved or they want to minimally involve into the sounding board and say okay you know the only time we'll talk business or i'll get involved you're welcome to be involved and unless you know unless you want to know more we'll just kind of bounce ideas off you and that but how do you when you don't have the boundaries you know or you're working with your spouse all day or working on a startup together how do you then deal with not not bringing business home or not letting you that affect your marriage when you're outside of business and you know it's kind of because it kind of seems like it's you know you got kind of the making business decisions together running a business together we also have a lot of things outside of business of kids and parenting and being spouse and being in love and other things so how do you set those boundaries i think it's a really key to look at where your resentments lie so if you are resenting your spouse in any area what is that area and that's the area that you need to fix because if there's if you're not having those resentments if it's working pretty well for you then you're probably not you don't need to set as many boundaries but if you have some resentment in certain areas that's where you need to take a look at okay how am i showing up here what do i need to do differently what is the conversation i need to have with my spouse and how we can make this work the best for the both of us okay no i think that that makes sense and so and so how do you how do you identify those areas or how do you identify them before they become a a fight right in the sense that oftentimes you just kind of put things on the back burner you put things on the back burner you say oh it's not i won't let it bother me or i'm not going to worry about it or anything else so how do you how do you not how do you avoid doing because then it usually builds up and the frustration eventually boils over and you have the conversation anyway but it's at a much worse you know point in time in the sense you're not in a good place to just sit down and talk rather you're frustrated and you're you're raising voices or whatnot so how do you identify those areas beforehand well i think you said it it's seeing where you're frustrated right like noticing that about yourself realizing that the frustration is created by you expecting things to be different than they are that's where resentment comes into is when you expect things should be differently than they are either your spouse should be doing things differently or they shouldn't be doing something and that's where those frustrations and resentments lie so just being really self-aware and noticing when those things come up and then addressing them before they get out of hand i don't think it's ever a good idea to not address those things to just shove them down because they're not going to get better whenever you resist whatever you're feeling it just tends to fester and get worse i like to say whatever we resist persists so if you're shoving it down going oh i just won't worry about it oh no it's going to continue to fester it's going to continue to get worse and then it's going to end up an explosion and so it'd be better to just say hey i'm noticing that i get really frustrated when i feel like you should be doing this or you shouldn't be doing this and i'd like to have a conversation about it so that we can continue to have a good marriage and a good working relationship no that makes sense and it is great advice so now i'm going to jump over to and we're just jumping all over the board one of the things we talked about and i thought was interesting was you know some of the reason that you people build a business is to feel validated right and so maybe you touch on that and we talked a little bit before about the podcast or maybe if you want to touch on that of how you you know and i think you talked a little bit about you know being validated ahead of time you're not just letting your business be the only thing that validates you but maybe if you want to give a bit of thoughts or insight on that that area as well yeah so validation is a really big a really big point for most people they want to feel like what they're doing matters and so they're looking for outside sources to help them feel that way whether the business is successful or their marriage is successful or whatever and really where that validation should come is from within that you validate yourself and then you make things successful rather than making something else try to prove it for you so we're trying to look for that validation outside of us when really it needs to come from within and we're going to be a lot more successful when we do it that way rather than trying to constantly look for validation from outside sources so how do so how do you and probably something i need to work on myself how do you find the validation from within or you know how do you go about if you are looking if you are the person that looks for outside validation or wanting that you know people tell you know the business is doing great and we're making all this money therefore i'm successful right it's kind of the thing you're people look at me and they say oh you got you know 100 employees or a thousand employees or whatever it is therefore i'm successful and you define your your success based on how well your business or your career is doing which that's certainly a part of your life but it shouldn't be the only place you think that you can be successful you can be a good husband or spouse so how do you start to shift the mindset of looking not looking for validation only in your career or the business well it's just really turning inward and looking at yourself are you showing up the way that you want to i mean even if your business isn't like super super successful as long as you continue to show up as the business owner that you want to be eventually you're going to get there eventually you'll make it right it's not giving up it's not not giving in to the failure but continuing to make steps to overcome that failure over and over and over to make it successful so if you're continuing to show up in the way that you want you're going to feel so much more validated from within you're going to be in alignment with your own integrity and whether that's in a business or in a marriage it doesn't matter it's how you want to show up when you're when you know that you aren't showing up to the best of your abilities then of course you're going to be looking for outside validation because you're not getting it from within but even if you even if you don't get a validation from outside but you know that you're doing your best and you're constantly working hard it doesn't matter what anybody else says because you're showing up the way that you want to um no i i that that's some very interesting valid valid advice as to how to how to validate yourself yes really and it's i mean you have to kind of have this you know inner dialogue like you know maybe somebody else is appreciating but i appreciate how i show up in my business i appreciate me i appreciate the hours that i'm putting in i appreciate the work that i'm putting into this you know give yourself a pat on the back like i'm doing a good job even if nobody else recognizing it because you know that you are you know that you're doing your best now if you know that you're not doing your best it's going to be a lot harder to validate yourself and then you're constantly going to be looking for other people to validate you no i think that's a good point and i think that you have to because i think sometimes you get into a business and you you have to you have to be self-aware enough to validate yourself in a sense a lot of times nobody else if you're the ceo if you're the person that runs it that found that your employees oftentimes aren't going to validate you they're not going to come and tell you how great of a job they'll tell you if you're doing a bad job as a boss but they're not going to tell you if you're doing a good job and you know if you're a spouse if you're you know if they're not one involved with the business not wanting to be involved they're certainly going to be your cheerleader but they're not going to have enough details in order to tell you you know really validate you and let you know it's successful so i think one is i like how you're saying about you need to be introspective enough to validate to be self-aware enough to say hey i know i'm doing a job i'm meeting my metrics one other thing this works for me is you know if you're having goals for yourself and you're setting those and you're achieving them well and i would say goals both in in work and outside of work you can validate yourself on those ways saying hey i'm you know for me i look for ways that i can set goals within the family so two things i always do one is i coach my son's flag football league and i say hey that's the time that i can do that outside of work i'm doing something dedicated to the family another one that we're doing is uh where i'm we're working to restore it be an old vw bus so that we can take trips as a family together and so that way i can have dedicated time so those are my goals outside and then within work i say okay my goal is to expand or to you know increase revenue or to bring bringing new clients to that and i think that's one way at least for me i can say okay i'm not going to get necessarily validation from other people where i'm the boss and most time people don't tell the boss how great you are so let's do it let's figure out those points that i think what what do i define in success and then work towards them and then what happens what's that inner dialogue if you don't meet those metrics if you don't meet those goals are you beating yourself up for it you're like or you having you know release some self-awareness and go okay you know i should have done this better and i'm going to do this better next time like give yourself a little bit of grace and but and have some compassion for yourself you don't have to go into that you know beating yourself up but then really double down and see where you need to improve so that you can meet those metrics the next time cool no i think that's good so i got two more questions and we'll hit on one in just a minute so before we get into before we get in so i i thought it was interesting and i'll give the caveat so i always my kids you know i always do the show as if my kids can listen to it so sex therapist is a little bit more of that so before we dive into that one other question so how do what would be your number one and piece of advice um if you're looking if you're talking to someone that's getting into a startup or a small business who say hey this is how you avoid divorce how you'd avoid difficulties and and how you make it a good you know a good thing for your relationship rather than bad thing what would be i know it's hard to say what would be the one thing and there isn't just one thing but what would be one piece of advice you'd give them um i think we've already kind of touched on it but setting those personal boundaries this is what you are going to do and what you aren't going to do within your business and your family and then really sticking to that really being in alignment with your own integrity and what feels good to you and really sticking to those boundaries that you have for yourself okay no that's that's great advice so now we all well now and we sought to keep it pg for my kids but totally we will and i just more joking around um sex therapists i know that you know you got kind of marriage and sex therapist what overt does it within sex therapists or sex life and marriage and everything else well what advice or what would you give feedback for people as far as that portion of it as related to business let's see i just i think that if you are the higher desire partner in your marriage which 60 of men are the higher desire partner sex is usually a good stress relief for you um but your wife being the lower desire partner or you're the lower desired spouse doesn't always feel the same way so understanding where they're coming from understanding where you're coming from and trying to find that balance is really helpful like i i love when couples set schedules for sex because i think it gives the higher desire partner the opportunity to know when it's going to come next and then it gives the lower desired partner the opportunity to get themselves mentally and physically ready for it and so hopefully they look at it more from like okay i can get myself going and get ready for this rather than um dreading that it's coming up no i think that's that that's certainly i think helpful advice and i think makes sense and i think one thing that we talked on a little bit before the podcast which i think kind of dovetails into that is you know not using it just for stress relief or you know that you don't just try and make your spouse you know use that as an avenue they really had a bad day at work and then you say okay we'll use this as a stress reliever in the sense that it kind of then shifts your relationship or changes the relationship away from what it's intended to be is this way to fix the work problems at home type of a thing right i totally agree with that it really needs to be about you know love and connection and intimacy and not just a stress relief that's just kind of an added bonus to it i agree all right so that now we'll go back to the pg thief we're probably much more comfortable talking about but no all right um so as we wrap it up any other things that we haven't thought of that if you were to say hey these are things that people should consider we may have touched them all and if so that's great uh touched on them all but is there anything else that you think would be helpful for people that are wanting they're running a startup or small business they should know as they're getting going to make sure they keep a strong marriage i think just continuing to make your spouse that priority and the marriage a priority you will never at the end of your life you're not going to look back and go oh i wish i'd worked harder on my business and less on my marriage you're always you know people always like i wish i had worked more on my marriage and less in my work life and that seems counterintuitive to many of us who are those serial entrepreneurs who we love the startup phase we love the drive we that's where we get our fulfillment and excitement but really understanding what truly matters in life and that's our family and our marriages so i think that's kind of a really important thing to go in when you go into that phase is remembering what's really important well and i'll dovetail on that because i think the other thing to think about and that this i'm just i'm not the therapist or the coach for personal experience is that um you know the other thing is is i think that as you as you have a stronger marriage you do better at work and vice versa right absolutely if you're doing if you're taking care of things as in the home that you're having a good marriage you're having a good relationship you're being a good father then you're you don't feel guilty about it at work you don't feel like you're not doing things you don't feel like you're you're shortcoming and you're just in a better mood you're better to be around and more happy so i think that trying to say well i can be a good boss and then you know not having a good you know good time at home they have effects both ways work is going terrible it's harder to have a good time at home harder having a good time at home is it's harder to have a good work so i think that that i think a lot of good advice and i'm sure there are plenty more things to touch on but we'll leave it at i know we had some internet difficulties and that i apologize for but i think that we're reaching towards the end of the the podcast but if people wanted to get involved they're saying hey as we kind of pointed out difference between a coach and a therapist coaching is going to keep people that are already feel like they're having a good marriage or that their life is going well business is going well they want to keep building that they want to keep making it better what's the best way for them to reach out to you connect with you get your coaching or you know get involved get you as a coach or anything else yeah so you can go to my website amandalowder.com loudrs l-o-u-d-e-r and just like i'm loud i'm a loud person so amanda louder.com um i have my own podcast all about sex and marriage and the mindfulness that comes behind it it's a live from love and available on all platforms and you can follow me on facebook or instagram at amandaladder coaching all right well i encourage everybody to connect up with uh with you on any or all of those channels it's a i certainly i am a big proponent of you know work-life balance and i think keeping a strong marriage as well as keeping a good business life both can make for a much happier life and if one gets out of balance most time they both get out of balance so thank you again for coming on for sharing some thoughts and advice and things for people to think about um as a reminder to all the listing audience so if you want to be on our normal podcast or if you're even in a you know whether a coach or a therapist or anything else we'd love to have you on and hear thoughts but for the for those that are going through their inventive journey if you want to be a guest on the podcast just go to inventivejourney.com and apply to be a guest and if you are uh wanting to get involved with amanda certainly reach out to her and if you need any help with the patents or trademarks feel free to reach out to us at miller ip law thank you again both for sharing your journey as well as all your advice man it was a fun fun podcast episode and i think it will be very helpful to everybody thanks so much devin it was a pleasure to be here English (auto-generated)