Think Strategically!

The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

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think strategics if you're trying to get into business yeah okay there's a business opportunity but tactically i think a lot of people that i talk to um they're like they have a really good idea and they oh i want to do this class okay what are you going to do about it i think that seriously i mean everyone says you know one percent inspiration 99 perspiration i mean it's the same sort of thing it's like you got the idea but what have you done you talk to people have you talked to people in space have you started making connections people are actually really nice people are good you know you reach out to 10 people on linkedin you know you're going gonna get three or four people ping you back and say hey i know you work for whoever right and i'm thinking about this idea so you know yeah think strategic but don't you know act tactically i mean 90 of what you do do something to further the idea [Music] hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i am your host evan miller the serial entrepreneur that's also the founder and ceo of miller ip law where we help startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks and today i've got another exciting guest on here that has a fun journey the name is ankesh and i've tried doing my best to pronounce your day make sure i do it right uh but on cash he is uh done a few different startups had some taken a couple different companies from zero to eight or eight figures i think it was and he's raised money with venture funding and sold patents to google he was born in india grew up in london so he has all sorts of uh a great journey to share so welcome on to the podcast thank you darren i appreciate the opportunity to be here so i gave an intro to yourself but i think you will always give a better intro to yourself so why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and then journey leads up to where you're at today yeah i was actually uh born in new delhi in india my my father actually worked for air india so when i was three he actually got uh posted to london so i'm talking late 60s here so at the age of three uh moved to london um and um we lived close to heathrow airport and i did all my early education in around london i did mind it funnily enough my first undergraduate degree was in hotel and catering management uh which is nothing's related with anything i ended up doing but it was a lot of fun and a lot of good experiences uh then i did an mba and then i did a postgraduate um in um i did a sorry an mba and um management studies that was in brighton university um and so i worked in london you know for a few years and like 89 i said you know what i need to get out of it i need to change the scenery so i just landed in san jose i did have a cousin here so i was staying with her i just was i basically i was gainfully unemployed there was a in the us and in england there was a little bit of a recession going on um and i just sort of uh i just i didn't want to go home so i just sort of like picked up the phone that was my first i guess my uh first adventurous um of my first venture was just picking up the phone in those days without cell phones with roller coasters just dialing for signing for a job i got a job in san jose uh 800 a month recoverable draw what that meant is if i made money they deducted all the money they pre-paid me um but you know i was 27 i was young i was enjoying it going to the two dollar buffets at the red lion um and ended up starting um my own staffing company um and it you know that was the time there was a lot of people coming in on v1 visas and for the technical so my company 80 systems uh we started off and i i basically didn't touch any investment i what i did was i would actually have vendors to supply me uh the resources i would actually have the contracts for the customers and then i would be paid in 30 days in those days my customers were like electronic arts um sun microsystems well fargo fargo so they were really pretty good customers uh they paid on time and that people have been maybe dive into that just a little bit absolutely interesting because you know a lot of times and i i certainly think you know there are different ways to fund her to get a startup going and sometimes you can bootstrap it right so you're saying hey i can sell funded or i can bootstrap it or it's not a capital investment other times you're saying hey this is to really do anything we're going to have to have you know 20 million or whatever most people can't bootstrap that so you have to go again investment and so how did you you know doing the different companies how did you decide make the difference or decision between yeah let's get outside investors put fuel on the fire versus let's do this ourselves versus less self-fund or how did you kind of make that determination so for that venture it was really i was already working for that staffing company so i understood the market um i mean i couldn't go back to the same custom customers that my previous employer was working for so tough bit was actually starting for the new ones but i had a lot of confidence um in myself because i actually for that company you know they were they were a small mom and pop shop they were doing about two million dollars in revenue and i'd sort of double the revenue to four million and you know they promised me and i was honestly i was very happy working for them and i wasn't sort of like thinking about going to to do a startup um so i bought in two million of revenue for them and you know i was getting ten percent of the margin because i was getting a base salary and clearly you crunch the numbers if you you know if you're getting 100 of the margin you do one tenth of work so uh you know it wasn't it wasn't a difficult decision i got married by this my wife was actually working she wasn't earning a lot of money she was uh she was uh doing a residency so she was getting around those days about 30 000 a year but you know we had low cost of living and you know again they don't really think about that stuff so we had enough to put food on the table and pay the rent but that was about it um you know so it took me about three to six months to start generating some some business um and i had built up the relationships with these sub vendors uh previously so you know i and it's just uh you know i say the model just worked and we worked from day one so that was really cool so if you were to do it so does it sound like and certainly if i put words in your mouth correct me you're saying hey i could either continue it wasn't he necessarily intended to do a startup he got to the point saying hey i'm making good money but i only make a 10 the margins i can do this on my own why wouldn't i go and we get 100 of the margins as opposed to 10 is that kind of the tripping point or how did you make that yeah well actually the the tripping point because i was never now this sounds corny or stupid but whatever i was never motivated by money i i really you know and this is going a little for the stuff i really believe in quality of life and having good relationships with people and enjoying the people you wear that's a lot more important than a singular focus on on money so you know it is important clearly but you know it wasn't like my driver the decision making the tripping point was actually the frustration of my existing employer and the actual event i'll tell you exactly what happened we were just before christmas was like october november timeframe there's 10 people in the conference room and they're all talking about who to send christmas cards to so sales people marketing people administration and i was like what the hell am i doing here was sitting i'm wasting time i could be on the phone making business and should be existing customers past customers and you know the time was i'm like no i walked down i said okay they've been previous incidences like that but it was just my frustration of not being able to do things the way i thought it could be done um you know just being held back so that's that's really what it was clearly the the numbers worked right but uh that was the i just felt having control over my own destiny was that was the um was the driver okay no i didn't make sense you're safe i mean i agree numbers always you know numbers have to work and some you know you don't want to just go jump out on your own if it doesn't make sense but then beyond that you're saying hey and i think that's where a lot of people get you know it's either hey i think i can do this better or i just need not even necessarily better i just want to do my own way or i think i can do it a different way that's more enjoyable i can have control lifestyle whatever that is but i think that's a good point that you know that's that can be a good motivator it doesn't always have to be just the financial or to make the money but maybe it's just like to do your own way or be in control or whatever so so you did that so you jumped out and you did that sorry go ahead just put an emphasis on i think if you talk to any entrepreneur any startup person anyone running their own business they don't have an entrepreneur they'll tell you that's the number one thing they they enjoy by having the business having the freedom the flexibility probably work as hard if not harder you know evenings weekends but that's the number one driver but anyway you're going back to the story then um i met a guy working for that company and um he had this idea of a software product it was all about recruiting so his ability of resumes coming in and he wanted me to to you know work with him on that project so um so you know i started with working on that that was called sonic my staffing company was 18 systems so that started a year later so we did a million in the first year on the on the staffing company and then we started on the uh on the the software company and just to kind of you know cut quickly and you can ask me questions we did like 1 5 15 20 million on the staffing company and then a year later we did a million in uh sonic which is a staffing sorry the software company and then 8 16 24 we did raise money for the uh for the software company we had battery ventures tcv uh aig and a few others um over a period of time over in total in aggregate we raised about 50 million uh for the second venture um and at one point the investors were like you can't be ceo of two companies so i had to sell the staffing company which actually worked out to be a really good things we sold it to tmp the parent company of monster um and you know we're able to put a little money in you know in in the back pocket and then focus on the on the software company diving into that just a little bit because i you know i'm on the opposite i end up i like i have multiple interests and i end up you know i i end up being running or otherwise be involved with a couple different companies as i mentioned i do miller ip law where we help you know patents and trademarks are smart started small business but i also have been engaged in a couple of my own startups so do you think that you should and you can completely contradict what i do and that's certainly fine you think you need to have that singular focus you only look at one thing you only focus on one thing or sometimes if you have two great ideas or two great companies can you be involved with both or kind of what are your thoughts on that yeah no i'm actually working on two two ventures right now um and i kind of let you know like my development team you'd think that developers would push back and say oh no man i can't you know so we literally you know we until we're talking about slide at one minute next time we talk about creativity and i got a question on slice we're going back and forth i i find it you know enthralling i find it exciting it just really gets my blood pumped um i don't have more than two um because we're actually thinking about doing something else but we put that on the back burner now i think i think it's good i mean i always tell that's like my plan a plan b um look i've had my share of failures but you have to fail quickly you have to you know really realize is this you're just thinking this yourself or you know you're getting validation from customers so the ability to have a lot of ideas um i mean take investors vcs right they've got seven i mean they're not in the in the weeds right they're not actually doing but they're actually keeping multitasking with you know they know what's going on and if they're good investors they know about hiring they know about um you know revenue they're looking at numbers and stuff so they can do six or seven ventures um simultaneously you know there's no reason you can't do two okay no i just thought that was an interesting point because you hear you know wisdom or whatever you want to call it and both sides and some people say hey you have to be laser focused get one thing going and other people saying hey but i got multiple interests and i got some good ideas why can't i pursue these and so and i think that where it is is you have to gauge what your ability is or what your if you can multitask if you can be able to jump between projects then you may be that cut out and if you're saying hey i can only really if i'm going to do something i have to be all in so i think there's both sides so jumping back now to your to your journey so you did the both staffing companies you grew the second one got it up to big and i think that was on job their tracking of job application process right right right um so we were actually filed the s1 to go public with that company and 2000 market crash so you know everything dried out funding and everything else so we were we were doing uh i was saying around 24 million a year about 2 million a month but we were burning a million a month um at that time our bankers robertson stevenson were like hey prior to the crash it doesn't matter about you burning money you know they just want to see top line growth but clearly after the crash we missed the window and you know we ended up selling the company so i i sort of uh you know it went through a six-month period finding a buyer and stuff and that wasn't my thing i mean i'm a startup guy so i left around that time and i just had a you know a two-year-old daughter and i was like okay let's spend some time with the family and stuff so post that i was um doing some investments uh you know personal investments investing venture funds and for a few years and and then i started doing um a couple of other ventures i did um i did i did one in um actually it was an interesting one it was employee time off um for anyone who's in the financial world uh they'll know that you know when you give employees vacation um that sets us a liability on the balance sheet uh known as vocation accrual liability and if people are taking time off and not reporting it um you know you build up your vacation accrual liability and actually i was sitting i got a meeting with leapfrog um you know the kids entertainment uh educational company and uh sitting in the meeting with the the cfo and the controller and you know i'd set up the meeting and and i said out of curiosity what's your vacation accrual liability he turned to his control and she was you know moving some papers around 2.3 million so that was the easiest sell that i over um problem with that venture was that it took the sales cycle as long as i t got involved uh finance got involved uh um hr got involved and you know bulk up moving who you're talking to the sales cycles are so long um but we we really had we had some good customers siebel uh who got bought by oracle were using it uh business objects um worldwide are using it so we're adding different kind of so it was a pretty good um pretty good venture we didn't raise any money we made made a little money because we were sort of you know cash flow positive but we ended up just sort of just just winding it down a little bit um and um and then i did um another one which is a little plug for ip uh i actually had an idea about uh and this is prior to you everyone's familiar with the facebook like button right i mean they they used that around 10 years ago about 11 years ago we realized that sharing of content is a page ranking mechanism i mean everyone realizes that you know google you know likes employing page ranking looking at different signals as they call them but they hadn't incorporated uh sharing so whether it's emailing uh posting on a social media platform and i thought myself wow wow this is a really big idea and i don't know if i've got the bandwidth to you know build a team and take it to market so the first thing i did was actually file a patent uh so you know and uh long story short google ended up buying the pattern um you know so i just a little plug for you know ip think about ip you know founders is because i did it more from a defensive standpoint and and devon could probably you know speak to this more than i can it wasn't i was never going to be offensive and go to someone and say hey we're going to see you in that but if someone started doing it then i thought myself hey by the way you know we you may want to know something so at least i think that's interesting so because you get you started out and again if i put words in your mouth certainly correct me but you you started out and saying i don't know if i have the bandwidth don't know if i have the ability to take this to market so how did you then make that approach to google or how did you get connected with them to sell out the intellectual property and the patents and that and get make that connection well you know i sort of like cut corners a bit so i didn't want to grow it out i didn't want to build it so the first thing i did i just you did a provisional um i think i think it's called a non-provisional right but don't forget the terminology probation was a one you get a year to decide whether or not to pursue provisionals the full one yeah so yeah we did not we did a provisional and and then i try to raise money and i try but you try to build a business model around that right i mean so you've got this ip but you're thinking okay what is the business model um and that's what we couldn't figure out so i was talking to my parents attorney at the time hey and then the funny story uh he ended up working for google so what happened when google purchased the pants he said hey can i take the box because we're pretty close in mountain view i live in palo alto so he actually physically took all of the documents and built up a rapport and you know because he was an independent guy and so it was good for him um so he said to me by the way because you know your ip is worth something and i'm like really i didn't you know i said what ten thousand twenty thousand whatever um so he put me in touch with a patent broker um and and they they actually ran the numbers they actually got some like some software that sort of likes looks at the value of it and um they you know they give me a different deal ten percent if they could give you pay them up front or twenty percent if if they do nothing i said you know what give you twenty percent i won't pay any money and so they approached facebook um i forget who else but um but maybe microsoft facebook and google were the two guys the main guys the like button had come out by then um no that's interesting so basically it's a large extent you you did that your patent internet connection you're connecting up with the broker broker found the deal and for not having to do a whole not having to build the whole company we're able to sell it off to google and yeah a good return on that so i mean you know we look we lost money on the venture but i mean you know i don't know at least i can say i sold pants to google right i mean you know it gives you some little credibility market um and and then you know so so since then as i said i've just been doing some um investments and now i've actually the last year because my my elder daughter actually just graduated from nyu so she's been gone four years my younger one just started uh she's a freshman or just just rising freshman now at uc davis so in the last because you know i just as i said to me you know family is really important i want to spend time and so i was doing some ventures like the ones i was describing um but in the recent couple of years i've been working on two new ventures um one is shear tivity which is a b2b um it's basically helping salespeople with uh personalization of outreach and we all get these emails hey checking in are you interested in talking can we set up a meeting we're saying you know what you've got to make that a little bit more personal talk about some interest they've got i mean i'm a liverpool fan if someone says hey liverpool going to win the championship this year and i mean i'll open the email and i'd say you know what i want to talk to this guy he took the effort to do it um and so that's more a social thing but if there's a business thing if there's a um just since we're talking about patents if they've actually you know wrote a linkedin article about ip and the value of it the ability to sort of you know give some insight um the real challenge of that which where i'm really enjoying this challenge is actually the ability to do personalization at scale now what that means is if i've got 10 000 people in my prospect list hit a button and send them 10 000 different messages yeah and and and you know and and personalize that so i hope i'm not boring because i'm getting a little geeked out on this but the the thing is you look for a topic of interest so for someone it could be their college for someone else it could be some you know some some passion they've written an article about it could be an interest like someone they're following to identify those and then find some insight that you can add to it and so that's kind of like what we're we're working on with um with creativity so and maybe just to back up so people can get nice so you did and i'll walk back through the process so you did the you did the couple startups or the couple businesses it was more in the job tracking 2000 you know came along and then i think you one of them you talked about was job track you know another job tracking one that was at mail you did another company that was social mail that was more aggregating promotional emails into the single email then 2000 turn you know 2010 comes along you know you decided to go and do some more of some of your own thing and then now you've jumped over to two new startups and that's kind of where we talked on about you know you don't have to just do one startup you have a couple interests that you can pursue so you have sharetivity which is one that you just kind of touched on and if i understand it again i always i don't want to slaughter it so you can say it much better than i can but this one's kind of allowed you to find out you know personalized approaches or information about people as you're trying to reach out to them it's i think a google chrome or chrome add-on but then you can say hey i want to get to know more about this person i'm going to reach out to them i want to make it a personal connection and it helps you to aggregate or find that information and then you also have i think slide buzz or slide dot buzz right and and that one that one uh maybe give a little bit more on that when you haven't touched on that one yet as far as kind of what that project is yeah i i i mean i'm actually i obviously won't be doing if i wasn't passionate about it so but basically we're all familiar with facebook and instagram you know that's online social networking right so that's how you connect with people and you know and this is a really bad time with social distancing to do this but we sort of like incubating it in january to time frame january february was the the and it's going to come back but the thing is we all know and actually it's probably emphasize this more because with social distancing we all miss the pat on the back when you're in a bar with someone having a beer and wine and sort of you know giving a little punch to the shoulder and giving a hug to someone so slide is about social experiences it's about impersonal social experiences whether it's a happy hour on a friday it's you know going with the girls you know to uh spa spa day going to vegas going on a trip to europe it's about managing the whole process from from end from beginning to end um and and so you know we just wanted to ability an application no we all do this we do this through messaging we use venmo to split the costs uh you know we store links about where to go what to visit wherever people people doing different ways spreadsheets or whatever else but that's what slide does so slide well where you know there's actually currently at least a it's a mobile app uh it's basically wishlist so you say what do you want to do you know where you want to go so it could be you could be wine tasting for argue and say and then you just you know choose a couple of friends and and send a link then they all add the you know discussion within the app um and and there's you know this way to split costs is the actual experience themselves where you can actually you know the part so maybe if i were to summarize it and again so be like hey i want to go hang gliding i'm just making up whatever i want to go skydiving you know i want to go do mountain back mountain biking and so you say hey and here's my wish list of things i want to do anybody else want to go do with me and then we can also one you can find people to go do with until you can also be able to split the cost or defer some of the cost so it kind of allows you to connect with people as well as to do more of the things on your wish list and reduce the cost is that a fair one exactly and yeah and it stores the banter the communications whether it's you know trip details all there so it's all in one place as opposed to in different emails and text messages and also all the pictures and the images and everything else um and the thing we're actually working on right now is because right now you know you know we had we had a really good go to market plan i won't get into that and this unless you're really you're curious we thought this was gonna you know the feedback i got i reached out to just quickly tell you a thousand people in the event space because they do a lot of these you know uh party planning event planning we had a 25 to 25 26 actually 26 connection rate people actually wanted it so it's like 260 people ready to use the app uh with the uh chronovirus you know that clearly sort of fell off a cliff um so what we got thinking was like even though we're we're not traveling we're not doing these social experiences i think we as human beings you know the anticipation of an event you know the excitement of thinking about it yes we're working what we call inspirations so we're actually now um crawling every event around the globe so you know just there's about 4 800 uh towns and cities around the world over a hundred thousand people so we're getting all the events so whether it's in bolivia or it's in madagascar you can actually go to slide and dot buzz and actually find events and and then clearly if you want to go somewhere then hit the wishlist button and roll into the app so it's basically you know front end dive into that so and then we'll we're getting towards the end of the podcast but i do have one other question before my last two questions always asked so you you you know you went through and you've done several different things throughout your career everything from job searching and you know you know helping people job tracking and doing that type of thing to aggregating you know emails to do promotional things sold off some things to google and now you're at you know share tivity as well as um slide and so how do you you know those are all i can see somewhat of a common thread but they're also fairly different right in the sense that you know doing share tivity versus i can see that you know somewhat making connections personalization slide you know is a bit different in sense it's not really job tracking your job so how did you decide which ideas to pursue or which business to pursue or where you wanted to go you know it's about passion you know if you get excited about something right i mean you know it's just if you really want to you know if you like the idea and you feel bad you know i mean i i everything's just the bottom the common denominator is just passion it's just it's hard to sort of uh decide uh it's not based on what my experience is not experienced from you know what we've got it's just like man this is like not being done and this is really kind of exciting and you just get the juices flowing so i can't really um you know can't talk more than that as you know my background is hotel and catering management and i did an mba and stuff but i don't really have any domain experience like you know like like yourself in law and i understand the domain and i can build an application around that because i can see a broken process i mean i know i've actually invested in the company i'll give them a plug roostify um the guy was actually a consultant and he was talking about a mortgage application process which sucked and he knew it sucked and and so he just said i'm gonna rebuild that and so he had the main experience and it was a you know very simple but for me it's like just talking to people just seeing what's out there and um you know okay so one would be if you follow your passions and then to find identify something that you think you can fix and prove or make better or otherwise it's not out in the marketplace i will say sorry just a quick one thing i want to talk to people about this even if you don't have the domain experience sometimes it's better not to have it because you you look at things differently that people are in the space already so even like with this sales automation you know not many people are doing this personalization it's kind of like one of the issues we're running into because people think well you know is that really going to work we've tried it hasn't worked before some people are sort of naysayers it's more like you know they follow that sheep so it's not a bad thing to not have the main experience no and i think sometimes it's the benefits and sometimes and you get bad habits right or you have even preconceived notions that hey it has to be the swings it's always been this way or there are only so many so many ways to do this because this is how it's done and i think sometimes you know you still have to go out and understand the market i don't think you just dive into something you have no understanding about but to go in and learn and figure out how this is different how you can bring a new perspective i think is absolutely um could be beneficial to different industries and domains so as we now and there's always so many more things i want to talk about than we ever have time to but as we start to wrap up the podcast um i always have two questions at the end so i'll go ahead and ask those now so what are the first questions always so what was the worst business decision you ever made um uh i my voice was hiring there's one individual in fact we you know we were talking about going public and uh we hired a cfo and that was the worst decision um you know i won't get into the details for obvious reasons but i think that uh sometimes you're you're in a rush to hire so i think there's anything to be taken from that is just really careful i mean people gave me advice post that i was a young ceo then you know i was also i hadn't had an experience hiring people older than me uh you know like sit in the person sit with a person in a car drive down the carmel and see how you know time you can spend with them um so i think that you know that hiring is probably the wrong person at the wrong time especially the more senior they get because then it's harder to sort of uh um you know have an exit from that um you know i remember that specific situation the border like man we can't make changes right now we're going public and so on and so forth it was just put it in a very very difficult situation um and it did have a knock-on effect um you know on the company so i think um you know hiring as well i never think of bad decisions like startups i never look back and say oh man i shouldn't have done that or wasted money on that but you know that that's something that you know you don't try you know you don't don't work out i think probably you know i've done several of these podcasts and we have lots of episodes and whatnot and i think that is probably one of the the most consistent answers that people give as far as what they what they have learned as you know as the mistakes they made as hiring in a sense i think that's one where it's always a much different feel when you're in the shoot making the decisions trying to figure out who to hire who will be a good person for this position and you always you know people that don't haven't done that you can always say oh you should never hire that guy this was the flag it's so much easier to quarterback and yet it's one that i think a lot of times until you're in there you've done it and you learn those mistakes it's hard to sometimes know what you what to look for know what the flags are know what you shouldn't be doing so i think that's that's always a good mistake to learn from okay my second question i always ask is so somebody that's just getting into startups or wanting to get into startups what's the one piece of advice you'd give them um i think my my what i think about every day um is uh is think strategic so if you're trying to get into business yeah okay there's a business opportunity but tactically i think a lot of people that i talk to um they're like they have a really good idea and they oh i want to do this class okay what are you going to do about it i think that seriously i mean everyone says you know one percent inspiration perspiration i mean it's the same sort of thing it's like you got that idea but what have you done have you talked to people have you talked to people in space if you started making connections people are actually really nice people are good you know you reach out to 10 people on linkedin you know you're going to get three or four people ping you back and say hey i know you work for whoever right and i'm thinking about this idea so you know yeah think strategic but don't you know act tactically 90 of what you do do something to further the idea so if you're currently working somewhere and you know i'm thinking about ideas and you've got a good one but you know just just put time in on your calendar and and work it don't get caught up with the vision don't get caught up and say oh yeah you know i've got the idea i'm going to retire now because uh that's it that's just the beginning no i i think that's a great piece of advice for people to learn from so so as we wrap up people want to get connected up with you whether it's ask questions they want to learn more about charitivity they want to learn more about sliding download your apps use your chrome extension or otherwise just connect up what's the best way to reach out and find out more i'm happy for them to just connect with me on linkedin um that's i think it's linkedin kumar um i'm pretty sure it is they can also just email me directly i mean um you know it's ankish my first name amksh at sharetivity that's s-h-a-r-e-t-i-v-i-t so either email me or just connect with me on linkedin's always and i'm happy to help people as well so if you guys got any questions advice i'd be happy to sort of just spend a few minutes so um you know just let me know all right i encourage everybody to first of all check out share tivity i think it's i've actually used it since we talked and i thought it was a cool a cool chrome extension so i've used it to look up a few people as well as myself but just to see what see if there's anything or out of the ordinary for what it's saying i think that's you got some cool ideas cool businesses you're working with and appreciate you coming on and uh sharing your journey on the podcast so um for those of you that are wanting to uh be a guest on the podcast feel free to go to inventivejourney.com and apply to be a guest on the podcast for those of you that are listeners make sure to uh click subscribe so you can hear uh new episodes as they air and also uh for those of you that are needing help with uh patents and trademark feel free to reach out to us we're here to help to start up the small businesses so um thank you again for coming on it's been fun to hear your journey and i uh i look forward to seeing how the journey continues on for you and wish you all the best of success thank you appreciate it [Music] cheers [Music] you English (auto-generated) All Recently uploaded