Plan Out Your Bootstrap

Plan Out Your Bootstrap

Farrukh Siddiqui

Devin Miller

The Inventive Journey

Podcast for Entrepreneurs

8/3/2020

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The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

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you have to plan your bootstrap right you just can't just start bootstrapping you got to think about this you got to look at your own personal savings you're like what's your strategy are you going to maintain a second job or you're going to tap into your savings whatever the strategy is planned it out how much runway do you really have with that type of a strategy right how far can you go or do you need um to hire people can you do a lot of the work yourself from the beginning right how do you maximize your credit in those early days to leverage as much from your credit to help you offset expenses or pay for expenses and so on so really plan out your bootstrap not just you know just jump yourself you know jump in the water and start trying to swim really plan it out and then uh and then move forward [Music] hey everyone this is devon miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i am your host evan miller the serial entrepreneur that's also the founder of miller ip law where we help startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks and today on the inventive journey we'll go through another great journey of farouk he is a been in the kind of the financial services for a while he was in the mortgage industry for a bit of time and then when you had the housing crisis hit and all of that go started over figured out some things and now he's uh moved on to another industry which is kind of adjacent to that trying to solve the 1.6 trillion dollar student loan crisis and looking for different ways to help students and those coming out of school or those are out of school to tackle their student loans and so he'll give a much better intro than i ever could so welcome on to the podcast hi devon how are you thank you for having me i'm doing great and great to have you on the podcast so i gave a short intro but maybe you know maybe we can start you have a defiance uh that you are doing now but maybe if we take a step or two back kind of tell us a little bit about what you're doing in the financial services of the mortgage industry that led you led up to where you are today absolutely um so you got my name right but the company is the finance so oh sorry i just said the finance sorry finance so um yeah i mean i've been in the financial services industry for i don't know 25 to 30 years now uh started off with insurance actually with aeon corporation for a few years uh primarily as an underwriter later on i became an account executive with them and then i jumped into the the tech development or web application development area for a few years in the dot com days uh those were the great days where you could basically say whatever you wanted in terms of a contract and you you basically get it so uh before i knew it about five six years i went by and from one project to another um but then after the dot-com crash in in the early part of this century uh that's when my mortgage experience started work for a company that was doing alternative mortgages kind of more based on like a co-ownership model versus a lending model uh which sort of introduced me to some alternative ways of doing finance uh worked with them for a few years and then i started my own company with a couple of other executives who were with the mortgage company that i was with initially and our company we wanted to focus on commercial real estate mortgages the previous company was residential mortgages this was commercial we wanted to focus on small balance mortgages we felt there was a need in the market uh because a lot of the bigger banks were focused on you know the big properties the high-rises and all kinds of fancy stuff but what about the strip malls and the doctor's offices and the warehouses the smaller stuff that a lot of people were interested uh in acquiring business owners and etc so that's what we want to focus on but but again to test out more alternative structures we we decided to build a lease to own mortgage contract uh took us two years from 2005 to 2007 we built that out working with various law firms accountants eventually even rating agencies to make sure that these contracts would be uh securitizable uh we we talked to a bunch of wall street companies from ubs to to city to all kinds of folks but eventually ended up with deutsche bank who agreed to structure these deals the way we wanted to structure them and also then to to aggregate them in a separate portfolio on their balance sheet so we can securitize them uh down the road as you know as we built it up in a value and then it was all also about figuring out how do we provide the best customer service so we uh partnered up with pacific life insurance company one of the leading commercial mortgage servicing uh platforms uh they they have out there so pacific life came on board as well and then we had about i was the chief operating officer so we built about five i think six offices throughout the country california texas um chicago new york florida and um by the time we were we launched in the market in spring of 2007 we had about i think 20 plus employees and raring to go and uh you know our strategy produced about a half a billion dollars of deals in our pipeline within a matter of a few months uh but then the rug was pulled out from under our feet because the financial along with a whole lot of other people i'm sure yeah i mean thinking back on it right you can't you can't always control your timing right obviously if we had known that was going to happen it would have been a different strategy but but you know it's now look now i look back at it and i'm like wow what a great learning experience because managing customers with all this uncertainty and literally if you imagine we started in like spring of 2007 so we had a few deals that were in the pipeline commercial mortgage deals take longer than residential mortgage deals there's a more you know more involved um but by the time the crisis said we had people that were you know ready to schedule their closing right they've already been approved we've issued approval letters and now all of a sudden deutsche bank is like raising their spreads and now they're not qualifying because you know pricing is going up so all kinds of craziness started to happen uh but uh we figured out how to do a few deals working with some community banks but ultimately the business model was based on cmbs commercial mortgage-backed securities and that part of the business uh for wall street even shut down for a while so maybe just jumping in just a little bit because i think there's elite or something unpacked there right so i mean 2005-2007 you worked almost you know two almost two years or around two years getting this all set up getting it going starting to feed the pipeline and i think if i remember right and you'd know much but i i mean about 2008 was the time really the housing market started crashing down around you maybe end of 2007 earlier yeah end of 2007 is when it all started and so then you're saying and when you see all of that because i mean you have at least some overtones and different things different causes different experience even what you know small businesses are seeing today right with rus scruggs pull out with people that you have locked down you have or whole industries that have been shut down you have to figure out a completely new way of doing it and while get you know the financial industry that was more specific to real estate mortgages and that had a big overtones but how did you you know when that started to you started to see the road was getting pulled out from under you things were crashing having to pivot and all that how did you deal with that or what did you do in order to do with that or to try and navigate through that the best you could in a very uncertain time yeah the number one thing was trying to take care of the customers that were furthest along in the process right to figure out how do we deal with them so so then we scrambled around found a couple of small community banks that were able to look at our deals so we were able to execute a few deals because those customers were way in the process meaning they had sales contracts on properties right they put down deposits so just to say hey we can't fund you anymore that's a major major problem for those types of folks right so the people that were kind of way further in the process we scrambled and we were able to execute a few deals so that was number one then number two you have to figure out as a business owner how do you extend your runway right because your business model is basically collapsing around you but how do you buy yourself more time to strategize like you mentioned to pivot and look at what's what's next right and to really analyze what's going on you know can we even save this business or does this have to be a complete pivot into something something else altogether so that was the next thing as a chief operating officer my job was to is to look at that issue so um so we had to lay people off you know we had to cut down our operations right streamline things and i was able to extend our runway our capital runway by another year and then during that time we investigated two other opportunities that were coming our way one was an international opportunity to set up some mortgage operations in another part of the world and then the other was to actually starting an insurance brokerage working with a leading insurance company who was also having a lot of problems at least their parent company was we were working with lexington insurance company and their parent was aig and if you remember from those days aig uh got a huge bailout from the government uh because they were also on the verge of collapsing because they were so so heavily involved in the whole credit default swaps and you know the mortgage stuff that was going on but anyway so we we actually ended up breaking our partnership three of my partners went overseas to pursue that line of business uh and then i stayed behind because i had an insurance background and uh so i stayed behind to focus on building the insurance brokerage and that's what i that's that's how things uh evolved from 2000 uh starting in 2008 until about 2009 about two year period when all this you know all this transition happened uh for us so far to take that and maybe break it down just a little bit so you have 2005 2007 you built it up built the pipelines had about half a million dollars and and uh deals are running so it was a pretty big pipeline okay that's a lot more money than a half a million so half a billion dollars in the pipeline we're working through that and then you're saying okay as with most other people you have the carpet that's pulled out from monday and you said okay we've got kind of a two-pronged strategy one is that we're going to the deals that are farthest along that have the most likelihood of closing and moving forward and everything else we're going to continue to focus on those right and then the second thing was is hey now let's get conservative or make sure that we can uh or how far we can extend our runway with their current cash so anything that may have been in the pipeline or you know things that you're going to do that you could pull back on or otherwise not expend capital you were able to do that with those kind of two things so you you said that you guys kind of went all the way to 2017 and then wound down the company is that right no no by 2009 we were able to get the insurance brokerage going okay so it took about a year and a half or so to get that all set up and get that going so then that became my focus for the next few years until 2017. so it's kind of cool kind of went to 2009 with the current model as you were doing that pivoted over to the insurance brokerage then in 2017 that's where you've seen you wound down is that right yeah exactly um and then by 2017 um the climate was very difficult for those first few years right because the financial crisis was still going on for a few years there so then as uh you know i decided to move down to florida because i was in the new jersey new york area that's where i had grown up spent about 30 plus years but wanted to kind of cut down lifestyle a little bit uh also realize on a personal level right that you know i was just spending too much time working not giving enough time to my family so all this stuff goes on around you you sometimes lose track of some of the personal things that are important so part of the reason for coming to florida was to also you know slow down lifestyle to some degree lower our expenses so that we could you know further extend the runway and and kind of have more time to really think things through and see what the future holds um so anyway that happened came down here kept working on the insurance stuff for a while but thinking about how why you know why did this financial crisis happen what can we do to improve things and really my conclusion ultimately was that you know our the way we do finance is is really prone to all these recessions and peaks and valleys and i wanted to work on more socially responsible financial structures that balance that create more balance and level the playing field for customers as well so that's what i really started thinking about and contemplating and then as 2017 rolled around really started to focus on and how do we start executing on some of these ideas and then by 2018 really launched this current company to focus on the student debt crisis because that was the one area that really stood out as a major pain point uh that had developed over the past 15 years or so i mean i grew up you know in america student debt was always around but never never to the extent it is now or to the level of a crisis that it is now right the 1.6 trillion dollars you mentioned so we tackled that problem and then we did we discovered a very interesting approach of using an income sharing agreement instead of lending money why can't we use have people refinance their student loans using income sharing agreements which are more balanced for the consumer provide lots of protections especially on the downside right because if your income drops or you lose your job with an income sharing agreement you don't have to make a payment and that's not like a negative thing it's not like we're reporting them to credit or you know chasing after them it's actually part of the structure of the capturing agreement contract um so before we jump into because i think we'll jump into that in just a minute going back so he's talked about okay 2007 things are winding down with that company and you're saying okay i want to have a bit more of a social impact so to speak or i want to make more of a difference and hit an industry that i think i can do some good in so what were some and you end up landing on student loans right or student debt type or student loan debt what were some of the other ideas you'd have that you bounced around or kind of on the white board or the or at least the theoretical white board that you were thinking about at that time and how did you how did you land on student loans as opposed to some of the other ones you're thinking of yeah so you know as an entrepreneur you have to um you have to think of ideas but but i think they need to be rooted in your experience right because ultimately if you're not experiencing certain things if you're tackling a whole new industry a whole new business model you know you just lay raise the level of complexity and challenge for yourself right so so my my initial idea was to focus on more of a different insurance policy like a mutual insurance policy that's more socially responsible from from where at least from the perspective that i have and we looked at different areas where there may be some gaps in the insurance industry that we could tackle we looked at like non-profit insurance and a few other things um but the more we looked at kind of surveyed but but part of what i wanted to do also was to kind of survey the financial landscape and see you know let's not get zoned into one area let's really see where the problems really are right and let's let the problem lead us to a solution versus just you know sometimes entrepreneurs just kind of uh almost like um try to create problems with different problems don't exist so uh those are always the worst problems that almost always fail because you what and i completely agree what tends to happen or what can happen is you think of a really cool idea you know and i work with a lot of tech companies who are really cool technology and you focus on this technology is awesome and then you think but does anybody want it or does it actually have a place in the marketplace because you can make really cool technology that doesn't solve any problem but that nobody wants but it's really cool and that's you know and i think that translates over to a lot of things where this is a really fun idea and i think we can do it and then nobody wants it so yeah i think that's always something that you have to be careful or to safeguard against that you don't kind of almost start to use as you pointed out drink your own kool-aid or think hey these are fun ideas or i could we'd love to chase after this but rooted one in the where your experience is at and then two and actually solving a problem which student loan or student loans is certainly a big big problem and something to tackle so you didn't choose a small problem to start out with no and i think that's important too right because you know investors and um especially when you're looking to raise capital people want to see big problems people want to see that you're tackling big problems is the real potential to make money you know in this the space you're in or or the market size that you're dealing with so i think that certainly helps um so and you know personally like i didn't have direct experience in student loans but i had enough ancillary experience and you know credit underwriting and risk mitigation with insurance and overall in the financial services industry that i felt comfortable that this is an area that i that i could bring a lot of what i have learned you know from my past including technology you know because i have been a coder and developer also for a little bit of my time so um so now let's i think having jumped in enough let's jump in and i'll give the quick intro and then i'll let you talk a whole lot more just so sure i'm going to bring it down to my level of understanding which is probably the simpler level um so far to take it so you have student loans 1.6 trillion dollars it's a big you know a lot of money a lot of people come out of school and you know i went through and i got way too many degrees although i was i was pretty conservative i came out of undergraduate without any student loans which was great i also went to a cheaper school it was brigham young university or byu out here in utah i worked on tail off and we anyway we came out without student loans can't say the same thing when i went to graduate school i wouldn't did you know both a law degree in an mba and we came out with a decent amount of student loans and i worked really hard we pinched pennies we were we lived as cheap a lifestyle as anybody and we were able to pay it off so i you know i get having to go through that but you know for a lot of people it can be a difficult thing and it happens you know you come out of student loans and i look at even a lot of undergraduates you'll come out of undergraduate with 100 000 plus student loans just an undergraduate and you're looking saying i make a job or i have a job and i make 50 or 60 000 this is going to take forever to ever pay it off so i think your approach if i understand it right is we kind of say let's come in and do almost an income sharing agreement where we'll look at what your income is coming out of school or what your income possibilities are will determine what that what what that likelihood is and then based on that will craft agreement in order to help pay off your student loans based on your income so we'll share a portion of your income over a period of time and if you as long as you share that income over that period of time will pay off for students alone is that kind of the model that was setting up or did i completely slaughter that no no you did a good job i mean it is exactly that in fact you know in a lending borrowing relationship right the risk is primarily with the borrower uh but here in the income share agreement relationship the risk is shared by both sides right because on the downside if someone loses their job income drops right then even the investor or in this case let's say we're the company we're investing in you and in your income potential then we share that risk because we're not making money while you're not working right in fact we've also gone the next logical step is to say well we're actually going to help you because you know our goals are the same if you're not working money making money we're not making money so we've actually built an ecosystem to help people whether in their downside to help them find a job switch careers upskill connect them with recruiters job boards provide career counseling but even as they're navigating their careers even if things are going okay making sure that hey are you maximizing your raises hey we have some salary negotiators in our uh in our ecosystem that can assist you about how to negotiate your salary make sure you're maximizing you're not leaving any money on the table or figuring out is a good time to switch jobs is it a good time to go back and get a degree or some certification or something else that may help you in your career so kind of working on both sides not just the downside but also the upside so yeah and i think that's interesting because what you've really and again i'm not trying to put words about we've almost flipped it so whether typically the lender wendy you know or loaded a person taking the loan having almost an adversarial can be adversarial in the sense that i don't care what you do get me my money type of a thing because i need to get paid and i want to get paid and you're saying no let's make this a collaborative kind of relationship to where we win if you have a better income we win if you have a better job we win if you know things are going well for you so if you can't find a job or job's going down or you lose your job or you're in a job where you could make more or you need to do that all of those things you're saying the more we do to help you have a better income the more we get paid and the more the loan gets paid off and so let's let's align the same interest as opposed to making it adversarial which i think is a cool unique approach in the sense that most of the time it doesn't you don't you know you don't have that type of relationship with the lender and i think that's one where it will help to align interest and also get a better outcome better outcome and ultimately you you run into this moral hazard with lenders right where because your your interests are not aligned then both sides are trying to cut corners to win at the expense of the others losing right so like you know i'm i'm pretty confident saying i'm probably a little older than you um so i grew up in the the greed is good eighties uh culture right uh where competition is an 84 i'll let you figure out if you're older than me or dog yeah i mean i was i wasn't you know i was let's say i was in high school and starting college in the 80s so a little bit older but you know that's the culture right wall street the big famous movie for mike for michael douglas right greed is good that's the culture we grew up in right hey we for me to win you have to lose and and as i grew up and i kind of you know got in the business world that never made sense to me like why can't we win together there's got to be ways of winning together we shouldn't have to beat the other person down uh to win so i think that's what this this income share agreement or isa as it's known really what's what i like about it right is that yeah it's an opportunity for two sides to work together and to win together and ultimately i think that's what i think even other things that i kind of envision doing in the future within financial services those are the kind of cooperative structures that i think we need to work on more so if i were to do because and i think we talked about just a little bit before the podcast and my my one question was it's in correct me if again if i'm wrong and i always feel like i put words in your mouth but i find it interesting so because i mean if you have an income share agreement on the one side you get the upside right so if their income comes so if i understand it right maybe you can explain it if my income goes the period of time that i pay is going to be a set up period of time so if my income comes up you i see you get a higher percentage of that and or you get more money you get the same percentage but you'll make more money if my income comes up if my income goes down then you get you know less money but you get the same percentage so how does that work do you set the terms of the limit so that your you know if if my income goes down i just simply you don't i don't have to you don't make as much whereas if my income goes up you make more and you kind of share the risk or how does that work yeah i mean the fundamental principle is that if you take risk you are entitled to reward as well right you take risks because you want to get a vote that's why an entrepreneur starts a business right they take a risk they start a business they put some of their capital in time et cetera and they're looking for a reward and no difference in this structure right so to your point um we do set the term of the contract the term of the contract is fixed so if it's five years ten years fifteen that's typically our terms five to fifteen years and the income share percentage is fixed we're not going to be messing around with your income share percentage whatever we agree upon at the beginning that will stay the same which then tells you that i know how much income i'm sharing so i can build my life and budget my life accordingly and it doesn't matter how much income i'm making whether my income is going down or up that's the same percentage so my payment will be going less or more but because we're sharing risk with you we're entitled to some of the reward on the upside and we're going to help you achieve the upside too and it's not like we get all the upside you still get the predominant no if you get an income increase you still get more income so no i agree we're going to max out our income share percentage in most cases at about 15 percent so we're not going to go more than 15 it's and even 15 is going to be more people like like you who went to graduate school and have much bigger debt than people that just um you know undergraduate students and last question and then we'll we'll jump to i got my two questions i always ask you in a podcast but i'm going to throw it a third way just because i think that's the literacy comes so once if i you know if i were to do this system arrangement if i lose my job does that put the time period that i pay on hold i mean let's say i signed up for a 15 turn you know 15 year you know income sharing agreement or tenure or whatever that is if i lose my job is that still accruing meaning i still don't have to i still only have to do for 10 years or does that extend it out or how does that work if let's say i lose my job for six months because of cove you know whatever it is but what would how would that impact the income sharing yeah there's uh there's two concepts one is the payment term which is the 15 years 10 years whatever it is but let's simplify it in for like months let's say 10 years for 120 months that's what you've agreed to do then you lose your job for a year you still have to make the same payments of 120 months you're just going to need extra 12 months to do it because uh you didn't have income but it's gonna be a cut off too so we can't just keep extending it forever there's gonna be a limit to how much we can extend so if i lose my job for six months or just say for that six months it just basically puts everything on hold so if i had 12 months left of my debt then i would just simply once i get my job i'd pick back up with that 12 months remaining is that right yeah 12 months left on your isa then then yeah you would have to finish those 12 months up and also don't forget like the isa also gives flexibility for like discretionary deferrals so if you want to go back to school and you say look i'm going to leave my job for six months or a year i want to go back to graduate school can i get a year pause in my payments then we would approve something like that and then you'd be able to do that right with the loan you're kind of stuck you got to keep making those payments he'll go back to school and all that stuff but that's for you and that one almost benefits you right so if they go back to school go to graduate school they get a likely get a higher income than the income share or sharing when it kicks back in you'll be able to get a greater percent so it again i think it's cool because i have to give you kudos i think it aligns a lot of the making everything pull in the same direction you get now you're saying we're both wanting to increase your income we're both wanting to make this a beneficial relationship which i give you all the kudos in the world is because i think that it's solving a problem is a great a great new way to go after a problem that generally hasn't been really changed or addressed in a while yeah and before you get to your two questions i'm if i can flip the tables for a quick sec if you had an isa when you were paying off your loans would you still have been wanting to just pay it off very fast or would you then be able to do certain things that you weren't able to do because you had loans and you were putting dedicating so many resources to kind of taking care of your loans how would your life have been different uh you know that's that's a hard crystal i mean at the one sense i'm i'm about as big of a in everybody my whole family i'm about as big of a penny pitcher i i absolutely hate that right so i had i did debt because i had to do it with graduate school and i couldn't figure out a way to not do it with uh law school and because it was just too expensive on the other hand so if i could do it i'd probably if i could do it like for a five-year term or a a smaller amount of term and say okay what i like is let's say i said hey i'll do it for a three or five year term but i'll i'll i'm willing to increase the percentage of my income you know that you guys that i'd be sharing for that point then it probably would align up well because then i could say okay i just know for over this period of time i know how much is coming out of my budget i know what much to plan for and i know at the end of this period of time then i could i could i would probably do it i would probably be the one that wants to go for as short of term as possible just because i hit that but i think it's i think i would probably be a customer unfortunately or fortunately hopefully i've already paid it off so i don't have to worry about that but i think that that would be one that i would i would strongly want to sign up for and i think it would be one to consider so yeah yeah and i think a lot of people are in your situation you know because of this debt issue they're not saving money or buying a house or doing certain things in life that they normally would do so i hope that by taking an isa they'd be able to do some of those normal things and not worry about and not because this is not debt right you're not obligated to pay us back it's possible you may pay us less if you're like unemployed for a long time so that's actually possible in our contract no i think that's cool so all right you did flip the tables i'm flipping them back so we're gonna jump to the last couple questions of the pod that i always said at the end of the podcast so the first question is is um what was the worst business decision you ever made i i think going back to the last business that crashed in the financial crisis we put all our bags all our eggs in wall street or deutsche bank's basket right so we had no other funding sources for our for our you know mortgage mortgages so when wall street and deutsche bank shut down the whole business model had basically collapsed and that's why i've learned that lesson so for the this current program with the finance we're launching a fund to create liquidity for income share agreements so we're not going to just take money from one investor hopefully a lot of investors so yeah some investors appetize may go up and down with time but hopefully we can create enough of a um you know cross-section of investors so we can continue to create liquidity so i think that's probably the worst decision that's probably why the last business model crashed for us i think that and i i think that that's a good idea and no matter what to learn that diversity is a good thing here to have multiple income sources and you know having ability to if one if one thing goes down or slows down or is in the area that you want to be in that you know that you can have hey we got multiple sources of income or multiple investors or multiple different things can help you weather the storm so i think that's one great uh worst business decision but one did great to learn from so now if we do the second question i always hit on which is so somebody that is just getting into startups or a small business or wanted me to get into startups or small businesses what would be the one piece of advice you'd give them so you know everybody talks about bootstrapping and i completely agree with that you need to bootstrap delay bringing out outside investors and diluting yourself but what i would really my advice would be you have to plan your bootstrap right you just can't just start bootstrapping you got to think about this you got to look at your own personal savings you're like what's your strategy are you going to maintain a second job or you're going to tap into your savings whatever the strategy is planned it out how much runway do you really have with that type of a strategy right how far can you go or do you need um to hire people can you do a lot of the work yourself from the beginning right how do you maximize your credit in those early days to leverage as much from your credit to help you offset expenses or pay for expenses and so on so really plan out your bootstrap not just you know just jump yourself you know jump in the water and start trying to swim really plan it out and then uh and then move forward that's what i wanted i think that's something a lot of entrepreneurs don't do no and i agree and it's usually just jumping oh we'll bootstrap it we'll figure it out we'll go along and then you get halfway in and okay we're even at bootstrapping we ran out of runway or even with bootstrapping we found out that we need you know it's in a different product we need molds or we need something or we need a software program we have something that we can't do and if you never thought that other plan that out you can bootstrap all you want but you still have to have that done and you can run out of runway so i think that's a that's a great piece of advice well as we wrap up as we get to the end of the podcast people want to get you know either if they have student loans and want to start using your program or if investors want to get involved or they want to be otherwise get in touch with you or be part of the part of your mission what's the best way to reach out to you well i know we're recording this at a certain time but it's going to be released a little bit later so by the time this podcast is released our platform will be live so all people have to do is to go to thefinance.com and in our on our website they'll have access points into either refinancing their student loan and you know creating an account on our platform and going through that process or if they want to invest in income share agreements they'll have access into our isa refinancing fund so they'll be able to apply to become an investor and thirdly whether you need isa's or not if you want to access our ecosystem at least for this year if there's no cost to it anybody can go and utilize our ecosystem to for their career guidance we have other resources like mental health counseling credit services to help you repair your credit or to improve your credit as well as like financial tools and tips as well as investment tools and tips so the ecosystem goes beyond just just career so those three things will be there and then we're also in july i think hopefully this will be coming out sometime in july we have a um crowdfunding campaign that we're planning so people want to support us our business and they'll be able to support us that way too awesome well i think so all right the finances d-e-f-y-n-a-n-c-e dot com so best way is to either look you up on social media or just go to your website and get in touch with you well awesome well i appreciate you coming on the show it's been fun to talk always wish we had more time to go through a whole bunch of more fun topics and we'll have to have you back on sometime um for those of you that are looking for help with your student loans absolutely check out the finance and for those of you that are looking for help with patents or trademarks or anything else that need help with your business feel free to reach out to us at miller iplaw for those of you that want to be a guest on the podcast we'd love to have you on you can go to inventivejourney.com and apply to be on the podcast and we look forward to hearing your journey look forward to uh seeing how the the finance journey continues on and how things continue to move forward wish you the best of luck and appreciate you coming on the podcast hey now we're friends so we'll stay in touch thank you so much for inviting me thank you English (auto-generated) All Podcasts Sales Recently uploaded