How To Use SEO For Your Business

How To Use SEO For Your Business

Joshua Tobler

Devin Miller

The Inventive Journey

Podcast for Entrepreneurs

12/17/2020

Sponsored by findcourses.com

Also sponsored by Cereal Entrepreneur

The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

ai generated transcription

you want to go after a a keyword that's a little bit more niche it's there may not might not be as many people looking for it but it's hyper relevant and it's easy to rank for and so you can be the big fish in the little pond and own whatever traffic there is going to those keywords um for most for most small businesses that's the direction that you want to go hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i'm your host devon miller the serial entrepreneur that has built several startups into seven and eight figure businesses as well as uh ceo and founder of miller ip law where he helps startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks and today we have another great guest on our expert episode which is josh or josh joshua tobler and josh will talk a little bit about um seo with us and kind of how and for those of you that don't seo is basically how you make your website more searchable or more found on google how you get to that first page how you get the rankings and whether it's on google i guess bing is still a thing or duckduckgo but really on google but josh will talk a little bit more about that and so with that welcome on to the podcast josh thanks for having me so before we dive into just uh the exciting world of seo maybe give us just a couple minute background as to where you're at where you came from and why you're why you know all the things about seo that you do sure sure um business has been on my mind uh for a long time i remember i it must have been sixth grade or something we were reading a book i think it was called the toothpaste millionaire i don't even know if we read the whole thing but it's about a a kid about about the age that i was at the time who figures out a way to make a better toothpaste and he just did it for himself but it ends up turning into this business opportunity and i was just fascinated by this concept the idea that i i could i could do a thing and make my own money and not always have to be constantly you know if i wanted the power ranger toy i could get the power ranger toy and and not necessarily be subject to my my parents purse strings that so this idea was just in the back of my mind like a mind virus my whole life so i i went to uh college at utah valley university and and uh it was kind of a no-brainer to to go into business i didn't know specifically what sub-category of business to study so i did what what anybody does and i majored in business management which is about as close to managing and undecided as as you can possibly do um but i i did have sort of in the back of my mind the idea that okay i i understand the different components of business but marketing specifically is it this this is the one piece that i feel like i'm personally missing if i could if i can figure out how to leave the cave and kill something drag it home then if i can go out and get new business the rest of it i think i can figure out and so i leaned really hard into into marketing and that that ended up becoming an opportunity to to work in the seo field i i my first job out of college i worked at a company who does uh link building which is one component of seo and so and it and it's a particularly challenging component i won't go into the nitty-gritty of it but it's it's the the most difficult piece of seo but that's where i i cut my teeth and then um some people inside the company decided that they they kind of wanted me working in the the full service product line so it's it's the link building piece and then all of the other levers that you have to pull to be successful in a google search and so i i learned how to do kind of the whole suite of things that you need to do and then co and uh the company shrank on that that product line and i was laid off and so i'm like oh great so i go and it's back to the drawing board and i've got to go gotta go find a new job well i get a phone call oh i don't know long after i got laid off from one of my former clients someone i was doing doing seo work for and said you know they don't really have anybody over there doing that anymore as far as i can tell and i still need i still need seo do you want to be my seo guy sure i don't i'm laid off i will take the job absolutely at least that's how i would do it that's that that's what it was and so i filed an llc and and uh and and started up and and set up some relationships with with some uh some vendors and and i i that was so now so this is this is brand new so now no i think that's a great introduction kind of gives us where you came from so now let's let's dive into is given this is an expert episode we'll dive into a bit on the seo and kind of what things people should know so my exposure to seo is kind of one of those where you enough to be dangerous but not enough to really do anything and that's kind of about my extent but if i understand seo which is stands for search engine optimization it's basically how do you make your page rank on higher up on google or how do you move it up so that you're the first page of google or you're the number one ranking or how do you get organically or without having to pay for advertising how do you get ranked higher on google is that about right is that what seo would be that's exactly what seo is yep so now let's say you know taking somebody that's just new they're a startup they're a small business and they go to whether it's you know there's squarespace or click funnels or shopify or wordpress and they you know they build their they build their page they go in there and you know they have the little tutorial they build their website and they're excited about it whether it's an awesome great website or it's a terrible website you know everybody thinks their website is awesome although i you know just as a complete aside my past time is i always think most 95 percent of legal websites are just horrible they may look pretty don't get me wrong but they're horrible on everything else um now that's my aside so i always like to go and just make fun of other legal websites because i dislike them but so now we do that so we take that individual they built their first website and they're saying hey i want to go i've got either a new product or i want to do e-commerce or i saw an ad on facebook and says if i go and start a shopify or store i'm going to be a millionaire whatever the case is where do you even start with this you know where's the place if especially if you don't have the ability to hire someone as an seo you don't have an seo expert or you don't have that budget right now where should you start well i mean there's a couple of foundational principles that you need to understand um just strategically and and so this person in question this this hypothetical is already ahead of the competition at least they know they need a website some some business owners aren't even there um right and that's what they always told you right location location location this is why search engine optimization is important because anymore it's not about where your business where you where you're building is located uh that might help too but it's about can you get your brand in front of people where they are and that is going to need to incorporate search engine optimization if you're not in google you don't exist right at least you don't exist online right you still probably are a good human being that exists but as far as everybody online is concerned you don't exist right as far as as getting in front of the people who you want to buy from you yeah for all functional purposes you don't exist right so now i'm going to go back to my original question which i still say so now they've realized hey i need to have a online presence that's where the customers are finding searching they're looking for reviews they're looking for whatever i'll ask my same question so where do you start you have a basic website going but you're saying i don't know what to do beyond there what would you say is a beginner place to start if you have to start somewhere well so google wants to serve up results and like you say google's not the only game in town but they're still by far the biggest they want to serve up results that are relevant that are authoritative and that provide a good user experience so the very general answer is you have to be relevant you have to be authoritative and you have to provide a good uh good user experience on your website uh what does that actually mean um means a lot of things first thing it means is content google wants to serve up content uh what does content mean it means you are giving people information that is going to help them solve problems um if you're a business owner you're an expert in something right if if you expect someone to be able to uh if if someone is willing to give you money for what you know then you know something that's worth something or unless they think you know something that's worth it well yeah it's kind of the old attitude it's better to look good to be good at least you got to look good yeah it's true and i but i think more business owners are actually good more than they think they are um so that's you can't rank without content so you so you've got to start creating content or or hiring someone to do it for you um so so i'm going to bring it number one step you're saying if nothing else start to create content is that kind of a good place if they have to start somewhere to start it's it's a necessary but insufficient condition to rank in google okay so i'll take that as a yes the number one thing is we need to get not the only thing we need but we do need content so let's say i start writing the world's best blog posts or i have a podcast or something that creates content and i assume that at least for seo you're probably better to do a blog post because it has actual words that google can search podcast is going to be harder because it doesn't sit there and see what we talk about on that so let's say i write the world's best blog post or i do a lot of content of how to's or lists or other things on my website so check i've got my content then then you're going to say that it's insufficient so what's the other next thing i should do well and and and i think we've actually gotten ahead of ourselves already because before you even start the content you need to know what keywords you're trying to optimize for right what are people looking for that is relevant to you and that's keyword research and that is a pain in the butt uh but you can go to you know if you have no budget at all you can go to google keywords planner it's it's it's it'll get the job done um i use a little bit more professional tools that make it a little bit easier but a lot of elbow grease because you want to find like every conceivable variation of every product and service that you offer and every question that people have about it and that will that will guide your content strategy and everything else you do through the course of an seo campaign let me ask let me ask you a question on let me ask you a question on that so because my explosion again i started out saying i know enough to be dangerous but not enough to be an expert is you know let's say you have the keyword so let's take my law firm as an example just as because that's an easy one for me to talk about is you know i want to be the patent and trademark for startups right and so i go and i do my keyword research and i look up startups i look up small businesses i look up patents and i look at trademarks you know just as a few examples now when i write my articles or write my content should it be should i be gearing or writing the content based so that it's based on those keywords because where you know and where i get into is what you what sometimes it seems like when you read some content is it becomes unnatural right now you're trying to write to get the words in there as opposed to right so normal people can read it and understand it so how do you make that balance so i know which keywords i want you know i've gone through done the hard work as you identified but now how do i write it so that it a machine likes it google likes it but normal people can also read it well this this is a great question and this is a question that not enough people in the seo world are asking right because because too many people are writing for the machine and here's the problem the machine is changing i mean google is i can't remember google's market cap off the top of my head but it's an enormous freaking company they've got some money and they have the best technical talent in the world constantly trying to to better measure and evaluate how well you your website works or people so it's it's it's not there yet right the the machine is not a human equivalent artificial intelligence but it's getting that direction all the time so rather than take a snapshot of how the google algorithm works right now and then optimize for that again google wants to serve up relevant authoritative content that that provides a good user experience so write for the humans all right so the short answer is right get your topics from if i and i'm not trying to put words in your mouth so certainly where i'm if i'm saying it wrong but if i were to understand it write or get your keyword topics or figure out what the keywords are that do you do want to rank on but then write articles based on that that is for humans or that's understandable for your audience don't just write it for google is that a fair summary 100 yeah let the keywords be your guide but but don't don't optimize for machines machines aren't the ones who you want to discover your content and then and then and buy your product okay no makes perfect sense so now let's say okay i've got so we walking through first thing we said i got my website now i need to start getting content and content can mean if i understand it can mean a few things content may be what you put on your landing page it doesn't always have to be a long blog article but it may be hey your landing page or your main website page you want to have good content there then you can always build on top blogs right that's correct and and let's go into a little bit more more detail on that what you want to think about is you want to think about content clusters so maybe so so let's say you're an ip lawyer and so one of your your your product groups your your profit centers is going to be trademarks okay so maybe you've got a trademark landing page and yes content on that page very very important and you want that keyword optimized and you want that to provide a good user experience you're also presumably writing blog content on the same topic you want to make sure that that blog content is internally linked from your blog post that money page that you ultimately want to direct traffic towards um and and and so and you're going to do so you've got a a trademark content cluster maybe you've got a copyright content cluster right and structuring your i'll site a couple of things it's going to say hey this this page is really really important for uh for for for these keywords right of all the pages on my website here's here's the trademark keyword page and the other thing it's going to say is um well it and then all of that that link equity that's being generated from the blog post is going to filter down into that page so that's sort of a strategic way to think about what how how to structure your content okay so and i'm breaking it down onto my level and maybe that's always a dangerous thing so i it sounds like hey we let's say we take the the main landing page and we say here's kind of our content our content clusters as you talked about and that would be you know going back to the law for an example but it'd be applicable everywhere is hey i may want to have a portion on my landing page it talks about trademarks i may want to have a talk about our patents i may want to talk about why startups need it and then from there i link it almost to additional or a blog page or an additional page within the website that then starts to embellish or talk more about that that drills down into that and gets it deeper is that kind of what you're saying yeah yeah and in your case i i well and and maybe let's use a different example to to make make principal crystallize a little bit let's say you're you own an hvac company maybe it's hvac and plumbing um so you're you want one dedicated page on your site for hvac in fact maybe you want one just for air conditioning and another one just for heating and another one just for plumbing or maybe it's been just for kitchen plumbing right these decisions you'll understand better once you've done your keyword research and how to divvy these up but the point is do you want one page that you are trying to promote for a cluster of closely related keywords okay now now i'm going to ask one additional kind of follow-up question or maybe slightly pivoting but now you take that because i know again that there is long tail and there's short tail right you can have very short and i if i understand that short tail is basically short words maybe it's patent attorney and a long tail would be more like what is a patent or a trademark and so it's kind of how people search if it's a small snippet or a couple words versus a longer almost question or sentence or something that has more description to it and get you know is it better to go for the short words and you know when you're writing all your content or am i do you want to make it heavy on hey patent attorney type of a thing or do i want to drill down or do i want to do both or how do you start to balance shorter descriptions or shorter you know shorter topics versus longer ones does that make sense yeah that does make sense and that is that is a great question um i i i but i do want to challenge the premise just a little bit um so so you're right there's long tail keywords and they're short tail keywords but don't think about those in terms of the length of the search term itself okay it's a better way to conceptualize that is your short tail keywords have an enormous amount of search volume there's a lot of people searching for exactly that phrase but therefore it's really really difficult to get on the first page of google if you're not on the first page nobody goes to the second page when was the last time you navigated to the second page of google it's all about getting the first page ranking it's usually if if i go to the second pages because i really it because it the first page is too many ads right it only has like three results but most of the time you're right most people always look at the first page yeah almost always you want to be in you know if you're not getting in the top 10 placements then you're not really getting any traffic out of google um what was what was my point why did we get on long tail versus short short um so so if those first page results are just gargantuan sites that you're not going to be able to outrank in any reasonable amount of time or with a reasonable amount of investment strategically that's not the the key word you want to go after you want to go after a a keyword that's a little bit more niche it's there may not might not be as many people looking for it but it's hyper relevant and it's easy to rank for and so you can be the big fish in the little pond and own whatever traffic there is going to those keywords um for most for most small businesses that's the direction that you want to go so it sounds like you know unless you're in you're unless you're in the marketplace where not very many people you know are competitive you know if there's not a lot of people and you took hvac let's say you and i'm sure it's not the case anymore but you are the first company to go online to do hvac then maybe you could go for the short tell because or you know only a few they could probably go for those shorter words because it's less competitive on the other hand if you wanted to go for smartphones and there's smartphone cases smartphones smartphone accessories everybody's trying to sell smartphones you know accessories you're gonna have a much more competitive then it almost sounds like hey maybe we niche down and we get several different long tail ones that not as many talk about and i'm just making up but let's say hey i want to go into smartphone cases and i'm going to say which cases or fits the best for the samsung galaxy s10 and as an example and then you're then you're niching down to not just you know all smartphones are all smartphone cases but now let's talk about a specific one and while you're not going to get as much volume on as if you could rank number one on smartphones you're going to get when people are looking for that you can get a better ranking my mind it always seems like you're kind of aggregating it together maybe you have 10 short or long tails that each individual isn't going to drive as much traffic as a short tail but overall you're going to start building it and layering and getting more traffic that way is that a good way to think about it that's exactly right and and during the keyword research process you'll have identified both right you kind of need the short tail keywords in order to identify the long tail keywords that's how you find them and so it may be in the back of your mind ultimately i want to own the entire smartphone industry in search and so maybe that's your your long-term goal but in the meantime you want to be getting some positive roi on your your seo investment so that the quickest route there is to get those short those long tail keywords first no it makes perfect sense so now let's you know so we do that so one we we identify your keywords short tail long tail we start to write write content and we you know let's say we have the world's best content perfectly organized for long tail short tell we start to rank what's another thing or what is another what are the other things that we should be considering well so far everything that we've talked about really only addresses that first question right remember relevant authoritative positive user experience we've talked about relevant um what about authoritative anyone who's old enough to remember ask jeeves or then it became ask.com or yahoo or i remember ask jeeves ash jeez was awesome but that was i don't have any no idea what happened to it but it was awesome at the time well ask jeeves was awesome until it wasn't uh it became pretty obvious at a certain point that every if you search something in there everything that was coming up was a bunch of junk that you didn't care about and you were three four five six pages deep to try and find what you're looking at so we all moved to yahoo and then before long yahoo was the same thing google was the and the reason why google earned owns search today is because the first search engine that came along that gave you what you wanted just about every time i mean i i was i was young but i remember it was a miracle it changed the way i interacted with the internet forever and and the way everybody else interacted with the internet forever the difference was they figured out a way to measure authority that nobody else had and so what they did is they downloaded the internet that's really not an exaggeration they made a massive index of every page that they could find on the entire internet and they counted the number of the of hyperlinks that linked from one place to another and those are backlinks um and the the the pages that had the most backlinks rose to the top because basically those backlinks were considered third-party endorsements it's like a vote for your content and if i remember that that used to be and that's what i if i you know just from my short study backlinks used to be the way and ever but then everybody started to cheat the system right they started to make a whole bunch of websites that they would create that pointed to their website and everybody just would you'd almost have the you know the underground or the you know the black hat type of a thing where people are all just creating websites and there's just kind of trolls and they all link to stuff they really don't mean anything other than you had a whole bunch of backlinks and so then google changed right correct yeah uh it it it was harder to gain backlinks but people figured out ways to do it and thus began the seo arms race of google figuring out new ways to identify and punish manipulative links really they they only want to count links that are truly third-party validation of your content and so if if if it doesn't meet their guidelines they wanted to at least ignore the link if not outright punish it and and that has been the the seo uh google arms race ever since so if i were to do that and give you an example so you know you go on places like five around things that advertise hey we can do seo for 10 or 100 or whatever and they'll say we'll get you a whole bunch of backlinks those are probably not good for you or they're harmful in the sense that they're just going to sub-optimal sites or ones that are going to pull down your ranking and so if i were to put words in your mouth don't go for the sites that are going to be the crappy sites or people that promise a whole bunch of backlinks that are going to be terrible backlinks because they don't buy you anything on seo is that right that's right um there's there's a lot of controversy over what google considers a toxic backlink and what it doesn't and they're very opaque about the topic but um but but a good rule of thumb is the heart the easier a link is to get the less it counts luckily google google is a lot less um punitive with with those tactics they've kind of moved in the direction of all right if you if there's something we see that we don't like we're just going to ignore it we're not necessarily going to punish you but manual actions are still happening so you do have to have to be careful um but an even better rule of thumb is to say all right like like what is the kind of link that google really does want to count well it's it's third party validation it's linked it's a link that actually speaks to the authority of your content which means it's going to be on an independently owned site there can't be any signal that you own this other site that's also linking to you right that's that's not what they want um or it it needs to be editorially placed meaning there was it's not like on a write for us site where you just like published a blog or something like there needs to be a human being who has evaluated the content and said yeah this is good post right um so relevancy so now you're you know that you're saying that second branch it sounds like hey you're going to want to have other authority real sites if i were to say hey the people that you know you can't again we're going to the people that don't have somebody that manages for them or they don't have the budget to just simply turn it over to someone to do this but they're saying hey if i want to go to a if i want to get it you know let's say an example i'm in the legal industry then i may want to go to other sites whether it's entrepreneur.com or startups or something that readers digest or something that has authority that actually is relevant to my audience get real people that are actually running the website that aren't just mine that i'm you know feeding back to it and start to see how i can get them to direct traffic or link to my site is that a fair summary yeah that's right and as far as actual techniques for generating these links it's incredibly difficult because by definition you don't you don't own the other places on the internet that you want linking into your website um but there are techniques to to do it and to do it legitimately and uh and i i utilize as many of them as i possibly can you know i'm doing seo for a client um and and they they have varied levels of success but but ultimately the the way to to earn legitimate links yourself is going back to that content piece if you if you have the best most authoritative research on a topic well people are going to to link to that now that's really really difficult if you're that that local hvac guy that that serves three cities out in wyoming um it's it's hard to be that guy right dave ramsey doesn't need seo he produces so much thinking content people find him a link to him very naturally but it's different no no dave ramsey's awesome but let's say i take the example that you almost said the guy out in wyoming that has a great hvac he's putting out great content it seems to me and correct me where i'm wrong you know some of the tactics may be hey if i write great content then you start to go out to the because you also have the opposite side of a lot of websites that are big websites they stay relevant because they're actively posting new content so they are looking for content you know they're looking for new articles or things to share with their audiences and so maybe worthwhile if you are writing great hvac content as an example to start reaching out to those websites and you can do that through harrow which is help a reporter out or reach out to them directly or do something of that nature to where you can start to say hey i've got this great content you know would you share it or you know or you can pay people if you know you can always do advertising or paid you know sponsoring content for them to put it on their website or promote it but start reaching out to those that are relevant in order to then get it to get them to start posting it and then linking back to your site as a source is that a fair summary uh yeah that that that's one good way to do it another way to do it is to find any time your your company gets mentioned out on the internet and they haven't linked to you you can reach out to the webmaster say hey you know you've got this information you know can you like another way that i really like that's sneaky but still very much on on the legitimate white hat side of the line is if you know who your competitors are and you can pull their backlink profile and you can see which of their pages are attracting the most links you can look at their page and say well well shoot i've got better content than this or maybe i don't but i could make it and you make a better version of that same content and then you can reach out to those other sites who are linking into your competitor and say hey you're pointing to this this page and maybe maybe the page is broken maybe it's a broken link or maybe it's just not it's inferior content but i've got this superior content how about how about handing me a link instead i call that competitor sniping i love doing that hey any way you can get a legitimate uh or leg up i think is always worthwhile so now let's take the last pillar and remind me so you got one is the first one was content or you remind me how you phrased it what were the the first pillar well uh relevance authority and uh user experience so we've got relevance check let's say i've got a whole bunch of great content authority i've got a whole bunch of backlinks and everybody is citing to me as being an authority and then user experience you know we're starting to run out of time on the podcast but i don't want to leave people hanging so maybe give us just a quick insight as to user experience uh this is going to become increasingly important google is uh has has just announced that they're using some more user experience signals in their search engine uh next summer so this is something that's worth paying attention to um uh long story short uh your pages need to load fast um they especially mobile users you know have you ever loaded something on your phone and like the page jumps around and there's a pop-up that takes up the whole screen like don't don't do any of that make sure you know your ads are streamlined if you've got ads like everything has to just load fast and give the user what they want without annoying them so far to maybe take that and summarize it one is make sure you have fast load times and that can be making sure your pictures aren't so huge that it takes 10 seconds to load and everybody's going to move on you usually i think you want to have you know pretty quick load times on pictures make it so that the the flow of your website you don't have pop-ups all over or you know makes it so unusable and really just make it so they get there it loads quickly and it has a good flow to it makes sense for people they're trying to get the information is that about right correct and you and you need to make sure that you've got uh an ssl certificate you're on https not http um you need that your your website is mobile friendly there's a lot of constituents that go into it but you can you know you can google core web vitals and it'll give you a full list of things that that are going to be tracked a lot of these things already are tracked but but longer the short is just make sure that when a human being lands on your site they they get what they came to get with as few interruptions and annoying delays as possible all right nope makes perfect sense so as we you know and again this is a i think it's an interesting topic although i'm a bit of a i just think it's fun to build websites to try and rank to do all those so i even though i do intellectual property i just find that as a personal interest to be fun um but you know as we're wrapping up if people want to get more information they want to hire you they want to pick your brain they want to be you know have you as a consultant they want to find out more information they want to be your next best friend any or all of the above what's the best way to connect up with you find out more hire you anything or any of that nature sure go to longtaildragon.com it's all one word and i'll i'll give i'll give you a free website audit i'll find anything that's broken under the hood that can be fixed i'll audit your backlinks uh you know make sure there's nothing toxic in there that you need to get rid of but but i'll yeah free of charge i'll do all that for free no i think and i appreciate that offer and i certainly invite people to take you up on it now one question i know that was i said was my last question but one more question which is people you know if people are saying we have a bit of a budget you know what kind of budget should they expect should they expect you know thousand dollars a month a hundred dollars a month should they expect you know a whole bunch of or service what kind of you know if they're trying to gauge as to what they should be anticipating or budgeting if they are starting to want to hire someone else to do their seo strategy for him um depends on how competitive your keywords are um you know if you're a local business it it takes less investment to rank locally than than it does to rank globally for you know if you own an entire topic somewhere but um most agencies generally won't take accounts that are less than about two grand a month um with obviously that's a big budget for a lot of of small businesses i've tried to structure my packages to the point that they're affordable to small and medium businesses because i like them better i like small business that's what i'm about hey i'm right there with you so well awesome well i certainly invite everybody to go out to longtaildragon.com check you out see your services use you utilize you because i think that seo is certainly something that can be very impactful to your business you know sometimes it takes a few months or takes a little bit longer is a longer investment versus just go pay for the facebook ads or the google ads but the nice thing is it's not like google ads that the day you turn off the ads you go away and you all that money it's an investment that continues to ha dividends and is a much longer term return on it so thank you for coming on the podcast josh now if you are a listener and you have either an expertise you want to share or just want to come on and share your journey feel free to go to inventivejourneyguest.com we'd love to have you on and hear your journey or hear your expertise if you are a listener make sure to click subscribe and as you're listening to this podcast so you get notifications all our new episodes come out and last but not least if you ever need help with patents and trademarks feel free to reach out to us at miller ip law we are always here to help thank you again josh appreciate you sharing some of your knowledge and uh look forward to uh seeing or how many people you can help rank highly on google thanks devin it's been a pleasure hey if you enjoyed this episode of the inventive journey make sure to go and check out startups magazine they're an awesome magazine and podcast centered over in the uk and if the magazine is a digital and print magazine where they focus on tech startups and entrepreneurs and they also have a focus on female founders and women in tech so if you want to check out their magazine neither digital or print it's startups magazine startups with an s magazine.co.uk and you can also look at their podcast which is called the serial entrepreneur so go check them out they're awesome and definitely if you like this episode you'll like them you English (auto-generated)