How To Set Up A Business Properly

How To Set Up A Business Properly

Kent Gustafson

Devin Miller

The Inventive Journey

Podcast for Entrepreneurs

1/7/2021

Sponsored by findcourses.com

Also sponsored by Cereal Entrepreneur

The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

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i've had those conversations quite frankly with people that are in that boat and they say you know what you what you're talking about sounds great i know i need it i don't have that money what do you think i should do and i say you know what keep doing what you're doing you know working your job or or whatever it is and keep trying to set aside a little bit of cash keep working on your plan and get yourself in a little bit better financial position to actually launch this business the right way that that's actually my my best advice and i don't want to discourage anybody from starting a business don't take me wrong there um i just want people to to put themselves in the best position to be successful as they possibly can and that requires a little bit of capital [Music] hey everyone this is devon miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i'm your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur that has built several businesses into seven and eight figure companies as well as the founder and ceo of miller ip law where we help startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks and today we have another great guest on our expert episode which is kent and i'm going to call him ken g because i'm pretty sure i'm gonna kill his last name if i even try and pronounce it um but kent um we're gonna talk a little bit about maybe maybe it'll be very exciting maybe people find it boring but business formations kind of how you strategize with your business and maybe a little bit about finance and marketing as well but you know my interest in bringing kent on is there a lot of businesses out there that you know you you just you jump to an llc because that's the first thing or you don't even set up a business because oh we're just doing it out of our garage or on ebay or on amazon and there are some drawbacks and things to consider and how you might or juggle those or what you might how you might want to set them up so figured kent would come on and he's going to tell us a little bit more about that so with that welcome to the podcast kent hey thanks devin i appreciate that uh appreciate you having me on uh my name is kent gustafson and i am the founder of multiple businesses like devin um founder of safe shield consulting uh also founder of kent gustafson consulting and uh i've been an entrepreneur now for just about 14 years i spent nearly 13 years in corporate america in a variety of capacities but primarily in operations management and started my own business almost 14 years ago and my focus was really on helping people start grow and sustain successful businesses and what i have learned and what i have tried to teach others over the course of my 14 years is really just how critical it is to get your business set up and structured properly and and really started on the right foot and uh over the course of time i've worked for with nearly 2 000 businesses in the last 14 years and have played what i like to always consider a small but important role in seeing many many many of those businesses go on to be highly successful which is really uh for me what i measure myself on is is can i help other people be successful and that's something that i've been able to do so now now and i think that's a great introduction i and i agree i think there's a lot of facets that make a business successful and hopefully we can hit on a few of those today so maybe with that let's just dive into it you know the first one that always comes to mind and i'm sure there are plenty and we'll probably run out of time before we ever get to them all is you know business formations and that's you know oftentimes you know i always look at there are usually one of two things when people get excited about a business or an idea beyond just the idea stage when they start to get serious so they'll either do one is they're either going to go out and make sure they create a logo because that's always fun to see it take to life and then the other thing they made me look at is kind of okay now i need to i don't know exactly why or how i need to form a business and that could be you know i don't know do i am i a partnership am i sole proprietor am i an llc am i an s corp and i a c corp and kind of those things and oftentimes people kind of don't know what they do so they go with go on google it get some general ideas sometimes google gives you good answers sometimes it's horrible answers but how do they as they're starting to say take that first step let's say they got their logo so we got that out of the way how do they take that first step in doing a business formation or figuring out should they be a non-profit an llc an s corp a c corp a sole proprietor a partnership all or none of the above and how do you kind of tackle that yeah i mean fair question there devin i i think you know for most people the non-profit path typically isn't the first venture that's that's typically something that comes about after they've been involved in starting and operating a small business not always but typically those non-profits come up kind of after they've been down this path a time or two a lot of people that i work with come to me because they have an idea and they're passionate about that idea they want to turn it into a business but they really aren't sure where to start i would say uh probably 50 of the people that i deal with fall into that category maybe even a little bit higher um another large portion of people i deal with come to me saying i need an llc and i hear you're the guy that can help me do that and i would say that of those people probably 98 of them don't even know what an llc is or why they need it but perhaps you know a friend or family member suggested it maybe their their accountant or their attorney or their banker um and so for me helping people first understand what an llc is uh which it stands for limited liability company and it is intended to be a formal legal structure that creates separation between your business and the activities of the business and you as an individual and i always tell people on the front end if if it's formed properly and if it's maintained properly it creates a layer of separation between you and the business and so if something goes wrong with within your business if somebody pursues legal action against you or you find yourself in some type of litigious situation the llc provides liability protection so that you're not going to lose your house your boat your cars and other assets like that and you know usually when people understand that it's easy for them to get excited about getting that first step taking care of getting that business set up now in some cases people before before we leave off with that note because you know if i and i think that well under reflects my understanding and how i often explain it but let me break it down and maybe see if it makes sense this way as well is you know basically if you were to just start let's say a sole proprietorship or you just started a business you never did any formation you just say hey i'm going to start selling a product out of my garage it's going to be devin miller the individual that sells it then let's say that there was anything anything from trademark infringement patent infringement product safety liability you know if you it was an expensive product and get lost in the mail and somebody sued it or you know you you any or you know somebody got mad at you for whatever reason they follow lawsuit and you never formed it you just simply did it out of your garage you did it as an individual you just started your own business you may have seen it on youtube or you know one of those videos where hey you can drop ship things and it'll be awesome and you know so and then people you know whatever the reason is somebody comes and sues you if you have zero barrier in they can come after your personal assets which would include your house your boat your car your property your savings anything else because you don't create any of that barrier now maybe they'll lose because you know they don't have a good lawsuit but they'll still come after those assets if you put that at least that llc or some sort of a corporation in the in in you know in the middle of you then it allows you to at least have that one additional layer you know that they have to go through or they have to before they can ever go after you personally is that a fair way to describe it absolutely and and quite frankly there are a lot of people devon that start out their business as a sole proprietor um you know perhaps they register an assumed name with the state um they have no idea that they're opening themselves up you know as soon as you open a business you you take on a certain degree of risk and you know some businesses carry more risk than others but the reality of it is is when you are a business owner large or small you have a target on your back and um so part of you know for me i really am focused on making sure that the people that i work with and even people that i might not work with but have a chance to talk to i want them to be educated first and foremost you know i never want to see somebody get in trouble because they they had no idea the risks that they were facing now sometimes people are educated and they just don't care right they they move on and take the risk and that's their business but most people want to do things the right way most people want to be protected and so for that sole proprietor that you talked about that started their business out of their garage and all of a sudden maybe they're making you know a million or a million and a half dollars a year they've got something right now that needs to be protected and so creating that that llc or that corporation it really creates that layer of separation or that that barrier the legal metaphor is corporate veil it keeps that corporate veil in place that that protects their their personal property uh a lot of people come to me in that situation right they they've been at it for a while they're they're making money and perhaps they want to take advantage of some tax benefits that are available to them or they want the liability protection or or both and so that conversation then expands to okay there's the there's the structural foundation of the business there's the the asset protection aspect of the llc or the corporation then there's also what are some tax advantages that you might be able to to leverage to to save yourself some money on taxes and that's typically when i get into the conversation with people about potentially becoming an s-corporation and let's let's dive into that just a bit deeper because i think that you know standard is i think most people understand that hey if i'm going to do something let's just do an llc it's quick it's easy right so let's say as an example people whether to your point the attorney told them an account told them the bank told them somebody told them hey you should go fill or figure out you know you should form a business around it it will probably protect you and it makes you know having a business name the business owns assets as opposed to individual and just makes things a bit easier on everything but now so they come to you and they say okay i want to start a business and i know i i think i need to have a business formed now where do i go from here what's kind of the steps that you walk through to say should it be an llc or an s corp or c corp you know kind of give us that real world example of how people might start to figure out which one they need yeah i mean that's a that's a great question a great point um in i'm a big llc struct the reason for that is flexibility okay so both an llc and a corporation whether that be a c corp s corp both in theory provide liability protection to the business owner with the s corporation a portion of income can be protected from self-employment tax and people look at that and say well hey if i can save money on taxes i want to do that what i like about the llc structure is this when you're first starting out and you don't have any idea if you're going to make any money or not much less be profitable the llc structure if you're a one-person business allows you to have that liability protection in place but from a tax perspective you can be taxed as a sole proprietorship there's no separate tax return it's it's clean it's simple but it also allows you the flexibility to at some point choose to be taxed as an s corp you can still maintain the llc structure but for tax purposes you can file a document with the irs where they would treat you as an s corp people say well how do i know when that is and and i say you know your account is always going to be the the best person to advise you but i typically try to talk in round numbers and say you know look if if you're at the place where you're making a hundred thousand dollars a year right at that that's how much is left to pay yourself if if you are an s corp you can essentially break down that hundred thousand dollars and pay part of it to yourself as a salary which you have to you have to do that as an s corp you have to pay yourself a salary to run the business but you can take the other part of that compensation as a shareholder distribution and avoid uh self-employment tax on that portion and so people start to see okay you know let's say i pay myself a 50 000 salary or a sixty thousand dollar salary and take 40 or 50 in distributions when you look at saving 15.3 percent tax on the the portion of distributions people see the tax savings there and they see the the benefit of that what i like about the llc structure is that it has more flexibility in terms of its governance and management um than what a corporation does and so if you i kind of look at the llc and say well you can ultimately have the best of both worlds right you can set up the llc structure and have that freedom and flexibility file as the the s corp file that s election when the time comes because you're making money and not have to necessarily take on all the additional requirements that go along with the corporation now there are some times when the corporation does make sense in terms of you know strategic growth how you want to transition the business you know uh whether or not you want to bring in um partners that would invest and and uh have a shareholder interest those are things that that i try to flesh out as much as possible with people on the front end just so that we can plan accordingly going forward um but some of those things yeah some almost to jump in because i think listing out a couple it sounds like one is a tax purpose right in the sense that an llc gives you the flexibility of is depending on how you want to your taxes whether you're an individual that's running it by yourself or if you're doing it with multiple partners then it gives you that flexibility so you know maybe walking through for people that are listening one reason is to protect your personal assets so that way you know somebody doesn't come and take your house your car your boat your whatever your life savings because um you put out a product that they decided they wanted to sue you about or a service second one is taxes in the sense that it can you know it can give you the flexibility to depending on what your business is and how you're doing it tax considerations always play into that now if you're to go now because i think you're starting to hit on one thing i'm aware of or at least could be coming across of is you know escort c corp if you're going to an investor you're going to someone that's going to want shares as opposed to equity or if you're going to be continually going out doing multiple rounds of raising a fundraising of investors of angel investors that's a time where you may want to consider an s corp or a c corp is that right or am i wrong no that's that that's true um i i do see people pursue investment through the llc structure and there's there's ways to do that but there are limitations there are limitations on what you can do with an s corp for example um with an s corporation you cannot have more than 100 shareholders so if you're looking to go really really big um you're you're probably looking at a c corp the other thing is with an s corporation every single shareholder has to be an individual so uh i deal with a lot of complex business structures people you know let's say real estate for example they might have several different llc's that own different real estate properties and then they might have an overarching llc that owns their interest in each of those llc's you cannot do that with an s corporation because each owner of the s corp has to be an individual so those are some things that you kind of have to work through with people on the front end if possible as well what are your big picture plans do you do you see yourself going out and getting investment you know how do you want to to to do that do you want to have multiple classic classifications of stock you know voting and non-voting those are things that you don't typically talk through with somebody that's never started a business before because it's going to be way over their head and and i try to keep it as simple as possible for people on the front end like you said first let's protect the assets second let's talk about the different tax benefits that might be available and then what you might be looking to do with that that company going forward so now let me ask one question kind of almost a follow-up you know so let's say i start out and my dream is to i'm going to own it 100 right and then you know i'm going to take off and i'm going to have it all to myself and i'm going to make a lot of money and then a year down the road i said okay this is i'm going to need a lot more money than anticipated this isn't going to work i need to bring on investors and investors are telling me you know because they're whether they're angel or venture capital or it's an entity as opposed to an individual or anything of that nature that i should be in i should do an s corp or a c corp how hard is it to switch between a net you know an llc and an s corp and a c corp is that hey this is a monument it's gonna be a lot of time money and effort is it as simple as hey i just fill out a c or a simple form and send it in or how do you kind of if you're worried about making the wrong decision because you're going to be um having this maybe switch it down the road you know lay out is it one that should be a major concern or just a minor concern um i would i would lean more towards minor than major um every state is different and every state has different policies for how those things are handled but in most states let's say you started out as an llc in most states you can file articles of conversion where you convert to a different type of entity structure now there's documentation that has to go along with that that you have to create sometimes getting the irs or your state revenue department to recognize the new type of entity structure tied to your existing tax id numbers sometimes that's the biggest hurdle to jump through there are occasions though particularly if let's say somebody started as an llc a year down the road they realized that they really kind of need to pivot and and move forward in a different fashion and you know bring in some angel investors or or whatever um if they don't have a lot of depth on the books it might be easier to simply close that entity and start a new one or leave that entity open you know operate it at you know with marginal effort marginal um you know income and expense and take the other the new entity and pursue investment that way so much of that is case-by-case specific so if i were to now try and boil that down to my understanding level which i i got to take it down several levels you know that it sounds to me like you know if you need to reform and it's not just a simple one line or one page paragraph you know paper that you have to sign they'll convert it over it's not an arduous task that's going to be so difficult it's not worth it but you have options that hey if you wanted to start out as an llc and things change down the road and you need to make that adjustment or that change it's a reasonable or doable process is that about right yeah in a nutshell i'm a firm believer devin that there's a there's a way to do just about anything well not because i where i think that people are sometimes worried and it's the same thing whether it's let's say you start out as an llc and you want to go to a non-profit you know or you want to go to a you decide you know you're down the road you want to go to an s corp or c corp they get a bit of a you know frozen a bit in the sense that you know because they there's so many options they don't know how to make the decision they just don't make any of them and that's oftentimes the worst you know the worst decisions to not form any business to say oh this is all too complex i'll worry about that down the road and then you open yourself up to liability so that's what i'm trying to you know help people to gauge is hey should this be something that it should be you know i should spend a lot of time and effort or should i form an llc not worry about it down the road it can be fixed you know get is so help people maybe understand you know how much how much time and effort they should put into worrying about this or forming it up front versus haiti i just throw it as an llc start out with that and then i can worry about it down the road i'm a big believer in investing a little bit of money on the front end to potentially save yourself a lot of money down the road but that's not the end-all be-all right i there are limitations i think for most people um you know i'm i'm very much about protecting people's assets and and mitigating risk and i think most people look at and say well that's a great thing but there are limitations to how much time and how much money i can afford to devote to to you know protecting myself in this situation because there's countless things that could occur you know my focus is on let's let's make the best most cost effective not not necessarily cheap but cost effective let's try to make the best cost effective decision that we can now to put ourselves in the best position to be successful later that doesn't mean that two or three or four years down the road we might have to pivot and do some things differently than than how we started out you know you just don't necessarily know where your business is going to go on the front end uh but i do think due diligence and and and investing some time and in money on the front end is a smart thing to do i i try to make that process as painful as possible for the people that i work with i'm sure you do the same with the people that you work with them you're taking something that is to them complex confusing and you know whatever and you're trying to take that and just take the worry out of it for them take away the stress simplify it uh so that they don't have to worry about it and i i think that's you know my focus as well no and i think that i i totally agree we try and make it as painless as possible and now you you tripped into another question i was gonna ask you so let's say okay i've decided listening to this podcast or doing my google search or talking with can whoever you know or whoever however i come to college i'm going to form an llc and then i have the option do i go to an attorney to form an llc do i go to ken to form an llc do i go to my cpa or my you know tax account to form an llc do i go to legalzoom to form an llc do i do it myself and so how do you kind of weigh the pros and cons as to which avenues you should take you know and it's always a budget but let's say you have i don't know six six seven hundred dollars maybe a thousand dollars that you're saying i need to get this business going and so how do you kind of weigh which avenue to take because all of those are cost different amounts and you know they also have different risk profiles as to whether they're not going to do it like so thoughts on that as far as how people decide how to file yeah i mean obviously everybody's got their own perspective um you know in my opinion the people that go you know i think you mentioned legalzoom and i i won't pick on them but but they're one of many online you know filing services um i'm not a big proponent of those people simply because they're kind of a boilerplate one-size-fits-all operation and therefore number one the advertised price it's not going to be the final price because all of those online services they have a la carte add-ons it's stuff that you need um but you don't get the personal one-on-one support that so many people starting out need so i'm not a big proponent of those i've dealt with a lot of people that have used online filing services and i've cleaned up the mess after the fact it it would have been way more cost effective for those people to to work directly with a good attorney or to work with somebody my like myself on the front end so maybe so what it you bring up or met or clean up the mess what are some of the i don't know horror stories or messes that you typically have to clean up so that people understand because you know the and and i i get where people are coming from saying hey i'm just doing a very simple you know company maybe i just want to do an online platform on shopify and i create a you know uh drop shipping type of a business it's really simple it's not complex what are you so they said well you know template's probably fine for me i'll just go to legalzoom and i think to your point legal zoom you always have about it seems like five or ten add-ons that you know you never know if you need them or not so you end up adding them all to the carton as expensive as if you'd done it or had an attorney do in the first place but putting that aside you know what are some of kind of those horror stories or things that people get wrong or don't get right when they try and use whether it's a self-service do it themselves or some of the online kind of diy projects yeah uh one of the things that i look at devon is the the differences in statutes from state to state i i am based in minnesota and uh up until 2016 the minnesota llc statutes were quite a bit different than a lot of other states in that they required a board of governors to manage the llc there was no such thing in minnesota uh as a member managed llc or a manager managed llc you had to name a board of governors even if it was just you right even if you were the sole member the sole officer the sole governor uh you still had to have that terminology in place and that had to exist in your operating agreement in in your other uh formation documents uh the online filing services had no idea that minnesota's llc statutes said what they said and so they they would name uh llcs as manager managed or member managed llcs they would create documents that had direct statutory conflicts with the the laws of the state and i over the years i found those things to pop up in other states as well where there's something a little bit unique about you know the state of washington for example or the state of maryland and those those one-size-fits-all uh templates don't catch those differences and therefore they create documentation that that is in conflict with the statutes in in that particular state so those are some of the things that that i've seen pop up you know i always tell people you get what you you pay for if you're going for something cheap or inexpensive well then that's the outcome you're going to get most of the people that i deal with if not all are surprised at what they actually get and the cost is not anywhere close to what they would have envisioned that it would be uh based on what they get and and so i i always tell people look you got to make the decision that's right for you uh but if you want somebody that that truly understands this process and can really walk you through it hand in hand step by step you're not going to go to an online filing service you're going to choose someone like me or you're going to choose a business attorney that focuses primarily on you know corporate law and setting up setting up small businesses so now let me ask the the hard question so let's say they don't have the money to go to an attorney and you know i don't have the money to you know i'm doing this as a complete bootstrapped i mean i don't have any money aside i'm trying to do this on a five dollar budget type of a thing or a side hustle and so i just simply don't have the money to go to somebody that's an attorney or otherwise specializes in it or can provide that service am i better to simply not do anything or should i do a legal zoom or a rocket lawyer or whichever one you do is it better to have something than nothing or should you wait or just hold off and do nothing until you save up and have the money you know that's a hard question to answer i i sometimes i think doing nothing and then pleading ignorance is maybe you're maybe better served than to do something that's incredibly wrong and then hope that that you know protects you uh i'll i'll actually go back to what i think is the root of your question and it's the budget right i don't have any money and you know i do a lot of work with startups and i i focus on five core pillars and and one of those is the financial piece of it and over 50 percent of all small businesses fail to make it five years okay and of those over 50 percent that don't make it five years the vast majority of them don't survive two years and in most cases it's be it's because of financial reasons and uh the there are success stories out there people that hey i started my my business with a thousand dollars or with 500 and i'm now you know making you know generating money hand over fist and making you know millions of dollars those are the exception and not the rule it takes some initial capital to get a business up and off the ground you know even if it's you know 2500 bucks or five grand um you need a little bit of cash to get going and to to give yourself the the best chance to be successful so i've had those conversations quite frankly with people that are in that boat and they say no what you what you're talking about sounds great i know i need it i don't have that money what do you think i should do and i say you know what keep doing what you're doing you know working your job or or whatever it is and keep trying to set aside a little bit of cash keep working on your plan and get yourself in a little bit better financial position to actually launch this business the right way that that's actually my my best advice and i don't want to discourage anybody from starting a business don't take me wrong there um i just want people to to put themselves in the best position to be successful as they possibly can and that requires a little bit of capital no and i agree so you know i think it's hard because you know in the one sense you do read a lot of stories of hey we didn't have anything and you know if i were to take the you know at least the the story you hear whether or not it's true i don't know on you know like a jeff bezos or others that hey i started this in my dorm room started shipping things out and it started to grow and it started to do and you know you're trying to say hey you know i got this opportunity i don't love my job and i want to get something going and at least want to try it out you know then then you have the competing things of hey i don't have the money right now but i want to get great things going and i think that there's you know a bit of that balance in the sense that you know yet maybe you have to prioritize if you are going to get a business going you have to also look at your risk profile right so you're saying hey if the risk is very low on the llc that i'm ever going to get sued because all i'm doing is doing the you know a business that is out of the box same as everybody else i'm delivering cookies around the dorm room or taking you know a new pizza delivery and something that's fairly low likelihood maybe you can get going try it out see if you like entrepreneurship and then get going and vice versa if you're saying hey this is a high risk i'm going to go and try and compete against the big boys or big players and they're going to have lots of money and i'm going to have to be able to make sure i'm squeaky clean and covered then maybe you step back and say hey now it is much more important because my risk profile has gone a whole bunch up higher up that i need to make sure to have these in place maybe i don't know i'm just uh thinking that you know kind of seems like sometimes it's always a balance of risk versus reward and how why where you fall on that spectrum yeah i mean there are some of those situations devin that i've i've come across where at the end of the day and i had to be careful how i said it because i don't want to i don't want to bring liability on myself um but you know where i encourage them you know what why don't you see if this thing's got some legs to it give it a shot i i you know i i try to work with people and say you know if they say look i don't have a budget can you set up some kind of a payment plan or whatever you know i'll do that in those extreme situations because i want to help people but there have been those situations where i i was maybe pessimistic about their chances of making it and you know just kind of encourage them look go just try and just see if you can do this on your own and and where it might take you you can always come back to me when things are are looking up or you've kind of proven your concept you know one question that i get asked repeatedly which i don't ever like to answer uh people will come to me with a business idea and they'll say kent i know you work with a lot of businesses you've been at this long time what do you think of my business idea and you know i tell them i'm it's not for me to to green light their business idea or not and the reason i say that i've seen some of the best business ideas never go anywhere and you know for a variety of reasons you know it's not the right person driving the ship they don't have the enough capital whatever and conversely i've seen some of the dumbest things you can imagine and i don't mean i don't want to say that in a mean way no but just like you know you hear it and like nobody's going to want to buy that product or or whatever and it's wildly successful and what that tells me is there's just no predicting the market right you can go out and do market research and soft launch and all that at the end of the day you just don't know what the market might get excited about and so i don't ever say somebody you know has a great idea or has a terrible idea you know um if they say i get it off the record what's your personal opinion i'll say yeah you know i think that's a good idea i can see a need for that but i try not to encourage them or discourage them based on my view of their idea at the end of the day if they've got a dream and they're passionate about it i want to see them pursue it you know and let the chips fall where they may no and i i think that that totally makes sense you know that's kind of always i get the same thing as an attorney as hey what are you thinking about your idea and says well you know it's hard it's hard to give advice hey i haven't done the market research i don't know what the demand is i don't know what your team is you know the team is like i don't know what your funding is like and it's really always hard and at the end of the day they still want to give an idea so usually you say well this you know here are a few of my thoughts if i are in your shoes that i might consider you know one of the things i always reflect back to is you know i'm an avid avid watcher of shark tank i've i think i've watched either every episode or nearly episode um starting from when it very you know the very first one they used to have little businesses that were not the big ones that make millions of dollars now and are coming on for you know various reasons but one of the things i always saw was interesting is you take one of the products that almost everybody know now which a ring doorbell and that one kind of got laughed off of the stage why would anybody need that we don't want to invest in that who needs to see their video when you're at the door kind of thing and that one is taken off like wildfire and tons of people have it and so you just never know and so it is always that hard and i think sometimes to your points it's as much as the people you have on the team the the if your timing's right if you've done your if you have the right talent the right skill sets at the right time it can make a big a bigger difference in your business than just having the right idea well we've gone as far or probably over time but i think it's been i think an insightful and or hopefully it helps people get an idea of on llc's and kind of what they might think about so if people want to reach out to you they want to ask you for your expertise they want to use your services they want to learn more they want to pick your brain they want to be your next best friend any or all of the above what's the best way to connect up with your reach out uh they can email me they can email me kent at kent gustafson they can go to either my website safeshieldconsulting.com or kent gustafson.com uh there's ways to contact me through the websites as well um but yeah thanks so much for having me on the show down i really enjoyed it absolutely we appreciate you coming on sharing all your knowledge and hope and uh wish you the best of luck on your journey thanks devin appreciate it you English (auto-generated) All Sales