How To Develop Apparel

The Inventive Expert
Episode #64
How To Develop Apparel
w/ Terresa Zimmerman
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"The second you say brand to somebody they are like, oh, I have the greatest logo and name. Hopefully, the conversation we just had shows you that's really not what a brand is. A logo and a name that's a visual and a verbal queue of what your brand is. But that's not your brand. Just because you come up with a great logo or a great name does not mean you have a brand."

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What Is The Inventive Journey?

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

ai generated transcription

 so the second use the second you say brand to somebody somebody's like oh i have the greatest logo it's the greatest logo i have the greatest logo and the greatest name um hopefully hopefully the the conversation we've just had shows you that that's really not what a brand is um a a logo and a name that's a that's a visual and a verbal cue of what your brand is but that's not your brand right so you know just because you come up with a great logo or a great name does not mean you have a brand [Music] hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive expert i'm your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur that's grown several startups into seven and eight figure businesses as well as the founder and ceo of miller ip law where he helps startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks you ever need help with yours just go to strategymeeting.com grab some time with us to chat now today we have another great guest on the podcast teresa zimmerman and teresa we're going to talk or probably about a lot of things we'll see how far we get through things but she has a background in the apparel industry and i think for a lot of the listeners at least the aspect of your business whether it's doing you know swag whether it's doing shirts or apparel or lines or extensions has a lot to do with that so we'll talk a little bit about that on supply chain sourcing sales and brand positioning and at a broader scope maybe even talk a little bit about e-commerce and see how far we get from there so with that much is introduction welcome on the podcast teresa thank you thank you i'm excited to be here and to become sort of an expert in something that's awesome hey i i'll tell you if anybody ever wants to call be an ex they never have but if they ever did i would take the title so um well before we dive into the topic at hand maybe just for those that you know this is a reminder the audience uh teresa is on the inventive journey which is the uh sister podcast to this one um so if you want to go check out some of her episodes there and get to know her a bit better in her journey definitely invite you to do so but for those of uh people that haven't had a chance to listen the episode was saying hey i've got too many things to do i just want to hear the expertise introduce yourself to the audience give a kind of a one or two minute overview as to why you have expertise in this area and then why you have experience yeah sure sure so i so you you said we were going to cover a whole lot of topics um and um i want to come at it from the point of brand strategy there's a lot of misconceptions about what brand strategy is and how it plays with you um so i my background is in brand strategy and various marketing disciplines that you know go along with delivering that brand strategy to the market um the last 10 years it's our birthday this year with wood underwear happy birthday thank you i founded uh founded a men's uh uh underwear undershirt loungewear business men's foundations business 10 years ago and um you know applying brand strategy to a startup i think is particularly important um so i really kind of wanted to talk about that um it i guess you know coming from coming from my my sort of agency corporate you know big b2b brand strategy background um bringing it to a startup is um uh is a big change because you clearly don't have the resources of a big you know you're i'm on every side of the inbox so i get to tell myself what to do all the time and uh so that that's a bit of a challenge but you know startup founders um have that challenge all the time too so brand strategy can really help if you have it defined no i think so i like to comment if you're on all sides of the inbox and i feel like sometimes that's the only place i've had anymore is i'm usually spending more time with my inboxes responding to clients and talking with them and walking through things and i am running the business now in reality i still do plenty around the business but some days it feels like that well as we get into it yeah i like the you know i i think that it's interesting because apparel is i think a very competitive in other words i get you know on the ip side i get a lot of people that come in and they're they have the next great idea for whether it's a pair line or they just want to have their swag or they got a cool logo and everything else and so it's i think a incredibly competitive or crowded field and to be able to break into and have that brand strategy and i think you know you can take that and apply to a lot of other industries as well but you know you talk mentioned a little bit about kind of brand strategy or strategy and standing out how do you go about doing that in industry that is you know for all intents and purposes pretty crowded well and and i think this is true for every industry but but i think you're right i think everybody thinks oh i can i can put out the next greatest t-shirt and it's going to be an overnight success right and um so there is a there is a lot of that in apparel maybe because we touch it every day and we think we can improve it every day um but at the end of the day no matter what you know business you're in brand um brand is about being relevant and being different at the same time so relevant differentiation and relevant to your audience and different from what else they have out there as an alternative option and and then you have to deliver once you define that then you have to deliver that to your audience in a way that they can hear it and absorb it so and that's typically storytelling so you've got to keep it simple enough for your audience to get it and to absorb it easily and then repeat repeat repeat and stories are amazing um as far as that goes so the the the coming up with the next greatest you know t-shirt um or underwear in my case um is one thing but then you've got to decide all of those things about why does anybody care and and why is it you know better different you know whatever than than what else somebody is offering because otherwise you'll never you'll never sell it um i get approached all the time from from people who have the next the next greatest mousetrap so to speak and and they want to know how to put it in the market and you know you ask you ask a question about okay well you know why why isn't somebody else doing it are they doing it oh yeah so-and-so is doing this but my color's gonna be different like okay well can they just repeat can they just can they just do that um as soon as they see your idea and is there anything proprietary about that is there anything special about it what you know and it the idea falls apart you know pretty pretty quickly because you haven't thought through that relevant differentiation um part of it and that's even before you get into your business planning you know you've got to have the idea and then yes and one of the things and i you know this is my uneducated biased opinion but i think one of the things that people gravitate towards apparel is everybody thinks they have a catchy some sort of apparel thing and there's a lot of off-the-shelf product not saying good quality other than they do but you can go and silk screen a shirt you can go buy a whole bunch of blank ones and say well all i need is a funny catchphrase i'll put it up there and you add you don't have to your point a brand or a ability to position your brand and have a sell strategy there's a lot of people that have had good ideas good ideas and quotes for shirts or clothing lines or that because you can go and buy it off the shelf but if you can never position it people never know about it then they're not you know if you don't they're never going to find out about or find out about your brand you're never going to make any sales yeah yeah that's right that's right yeah i mean so i mean ultimately you know ultimately with brand strategy it's you've gotta you've gotta develop you've gotta develop those things and then you've gotta deliver those messages out into the marketplace to your audiences and have them replayed back to you in the way that you wanted them understood that's what your brand is it's not what you tell people it is it's what you tell me it is after you and i like that so now let's take your your business or one of your businesses as an example which is you know wood underwear and now you know you have an expanded apparel but you started in men's underwear so how did you how did you even go about positioning or how did you go about creating that brand because you know i if when i was growing up it was the old whitey tighties and that was that was what they almost the moms bought and nobody gave it much more thought and they were out there and i'm sure some of my you know i probably have somewhere i'm guessing some of those old underwear probably still from high school and i'm sure my friends do too and so it's one of those things that for a long period of time people didn't give much thought and so how do you go about in an industry where people you know a lot of times it's at least for high school kids and that your parents or your mom buys it for you never really think about it how did you go about creating a brand position within that industry all right well first of all when we finish here you need to go to your underwear drawer and probably start over but i think i would say that there's a about 90 percent of my underwear has been within bought within the last year or less so i am getting better i don't know that they've all been purged but they are they're mostly gone okay all right good well so so for me i mean i did start with product because you have to have the product because you can build a brand and then if your product doesn't stand up for it then you know you're you're done you'd slip stick on a pig right so you you you can't have a brand without a product product without a brand um so i started i started with product um and um then uh and my first year was learning we've talked about this on on my story on the podcast but my first year my very first product um is not the product i have today it was you know one style and four colors and a completely different fabric and different packaging and you know the whole the whole bit was very very different because my learning was about what it was and how how how it was special to the marketplace and how i wanted to build its specialness and that included compounding the story wherever i could right so with the name having fun with the name i did have the name so wood underwear you know we're having a little fun with that but also you know putting the putting it in the fabric there's beautiful wood viscous fibers out there so wood is also in the fabric in that story place so it's compounding the messages that are out there it's a premium product it's an affordable premium product so how do i talk about it in a premium way i mean we air and especially with with our name and the fun that we're having with it we err on the side of sexy not sex so it's a fine line in underwear and um and we prefer to play on the sexy side as a more of a premium positioning and foundation pieces i mean over a decade you can imagine and this is another reason why brand strategy is important it provides you guard rails so because every single person that meets you as a founder of a startup company has a great idea that you should then do and so i mean in in expanding my line and um keeping a focus um on what the brand and and the product can deliver on versus what everybody thinks i should be doing and expanding on um it's foundational pieces right so i'm not doing i'm not doing leisure wear or i'm doing loungewear i'm not doing athleisure i'm not doing um you know sportswear i'm not i'm not trying to compete with the underwear out there that you can take two pair for a 14-day camping trip that's not you know that's not what we're trying to do um so you know having having that focus on the premium level foundation you know foundation pieces um for everyday wear for every guy um and uh you know in the locker room test it's not scary it's not too it's not sex it's it is it passes the locker room test so that was what it's gonna because you hit on one thing which is you know first of all you can have a what you want to position your brand that and then you're trying to get that feedback to see if that's actually how it's understood or the ret or how people are is being conveyed to people how they're understanding it so when you're talking about you know it's more of you're selling sexy not sex and those type of things how did you go about confirming that where you were trying to position your brand was actually or another and i think that's you know overlapped with a lot of people in other words i know what i want people to think about my brand but it doesn't always match up with how people can pre perceive it and i've had those even with some of our businesses so how do you do that to where you are confirming what how they're perceiving it you have to know yourself and you have to trust it right but then you're always testing those boundaries and figuring out how far your brand strategy can test i mean in a in a a visual way if i think about our prints the prints and the color ways that we start with right to stay on the side of sexy not sex you know we're not doing crazy you know i don't want to say obscene that sounds like a judgment but um uh like sexual visuals uh on our underwear we don't do novelty because we really are about wardrobing so it's fine to have you know banana um banana novelty prints on your underwear that's not us you're gonna go somewhere else for that we're we're really about everyday wardrobing stuff that is going to be a mainstay in your drawer in your in your wardrobe that is going to help you know build the the rest of whatever you put on top of it um you know as part of as part of a holistic you know approach to you um and so yes absolutely have fun with some of that other stuff but you're going to go somewhere else for that um so it it it really does help you define it it helps us to find how we are in sexy stores so there are sexy stores but we also are able to play in in the finest men's stores because of our positioning so if we were in the sexy stores as sex stuff then our men's stores probably would we probably wouldn't be appropriate for that but we're really about wardrobing and um and offering uh you know products that you know fill a more foundational wardrobe function you have to and you do have to test it you have to test it all the time i mean we came out with thongs and jocks a couple years ago and everybody's like oh my god you know for men um but you know it's amazing how many how many we sell and you know it's it is not that's not a that doesn't cross the line because there's a reason for it i mean there's a reason why women wear thongs they're comfortable there's not a lot of fabric they don't move um you know and men are figuring this out so there's there's uh there's a function for it i i still haven't uh or honestly i haven't figured that one out yet so i'm still lagging behind a bit but maybe maybe someday i'll have to i'll have to try it out it's not gonna be for everybody but i mean the point the point is is that if you know yourself you know and you know what your brand stands for and you know what it what you want it to stand for then you can use those as decision making you know criteria like the guard rails right guard rails are not finite you can move your guard rails you can shift right but you're you know headed in a certain direction hopefully so i think that that definitely makes perfect sense so let's shift gears slightly and they're kind of along those lines but i know that you know you and we've talked a little bit before in some of the you know invented journey episodes get into a bit of supply chain i think that that is you know i it's been exacerbated by you know the the recent things but i think it's always to a degree you have to have you'll have supply chain issues in other words been i'm working with a lot of startups and even before covet and some of the different things hit you still had or people still had to deal with supply chains and making sure that things got there on time and that you had enough supplies and always working through those issues and so as a business you know having done or having gone through or maybe you're still going through supply chain and figuring that out how do you go about tackling that or approaching it or any words or her thoughts for people that are facing that uh patience i mean the the the the good and the bad of it right now is that every single one of us out there is going through it and so there's you know it's not like somebody's messing up right it's not like somebody's missing a deadline because they can help it um it's uh you know so everybody's having to have a whole lot of patience right now but um but having having good relationships and this is again i'm gonna tie this back to brand a little bit so we i i founded this business because i wanted to get out of the transactionalness of corporate i wanted to be in more of relationship based type of business and so that's how i function my my business and that's how i've kind of built my brand around that and so my you know my import export broker it's a big corporation but i know them right my manufacturers are they're smaller size they're smaller manufacturers i know who they are i have conversations with them um i'm not just shipping a faxing and order off and you know it's a it's a fax deal um and um and so having those having the relationships that you can have in that supply chain just helps to make sure you can you're doing everything you can do to make sure the parts you control are going smoothly so the whether it can get into port on time i mean none of us can none of us can deal with that except set expectation accordingly right so every conversation i'm having right now with my customers and i'm having those conversations again that's about the relationship with your the all up and down the supply chain is is to say hey customer my manufacturer is going to deliver on time but here's what we don't control right and so understanding all of those pieces and then laying it out there i mean i find people are really understanding for most things if you're setting the right expectation um and and that's really all i've figured out to to do with this whole supply chain thing because i mean i'm i'm hearing now that we've got you know railroad uh railroad uh and burglary issues now too and that's once it gets through the port so i mean you know hopefully hopefully there's an end in sight to some of this stuff and and it can get under control but control what you can control and set expectation for what you can't no and i think a couple things you hit on that definitely make sense and i would i would echo is one is establishing the relationship with people goes a long way and that's whether it's suppliers whether it's buyers whether it's your customers and then also you're being in communication with them in other words if there's things that are out of your control now people are patient to degree if they have to wait five years in order to buy a car they're probably gonna go somewhere else or underwear if they had to wait for an exorbitant amount of time but to it within a reasonable amount of time they're going to say hey i understand everybody's going through this it's not your fault you've been very good in the past and you know we have a great relationship and i think you're going to deliver and it buys a long way and then i think you just have to work through that but if you're having or continuing to maintain that relationship and have that um open communication definitely goes a long way to buy goodwill to with all of the customers yeah well and and the apparel industry you know i think also because people you know back to this thing area we started on was you know everybody thinks they can make the next next best you know t-shirt or suit or whatever it is um you you don't necessarily think about all those pieces you have to learn i mean i didn't i'm still learning i'm still learning about it but you have to become a student of the entire chain um you know i'll never forget when my current you know my current and for 10 years warehouse uh uh owner called me and said hey you know what are you doing for 3pl and i'm like what the hell's a 3pl i mean i think i can write that down right now but i'd like to learn more right so i mean i didn't know what i didn't know but you know once you start learning some of these pieces you've got to become a student of all of the pieces whether you whether you need to be the expert or not you still have to be a student of all of us so you can connect all those dots and and develop relationships where you can oh i think that's that or that's that's a great point now one thing i'll switch to a little bit because i if i understand you can tell me where i'm or misunderstand your business because i'm by far the expert but one of the things you do a lot of is on the e-commerce side or e-commerce platform and you know part of your sales and efforts and i get that there's storage and distribution but if you're talking you know one of the areas i think is certainly an area that's growing is the e-commerce side because people have found whether it's the pandemic you don't always have to go into retail stores you don't always have to go into or you know physical locations for everything you're purchasing now some people may want to and there's still a reason that it's around but if you're saying now for the e-commerce side of platforms and that any words of advice as to how you might position yourself you might or represent the brand how you might convey that and other any other kind of piece of advice in that realm yeah well so um so again i think if you are going to be an ecom brand that's a very different thing than being a you know national whole wholesale plus econ brand right um there's a there's a lot of brands out there starting that are pure ecom um but i think you'll even i i think i think you can even see with what amazon has started to do about um physical locations you you're not going to get away from the store i mean ecom is growing and it's growing at phenomenal percentages but it's still a small percentage of commerce that happens so i haven't seen i mean i know because everything was shut down last year and much of my or in 2020 and much of last year as well but um so i know those percentages have grown but people are going back into stores this year so it's going to be interesting to see at the end of 2022 what those numbers come back to before 2020 um i think that i think we hit a high of like 11 percent of all um of all commerce was done on ecom right 11 that means 89 is done in a store so that's where people are like oh it's it's crazy right because 11 percent might have might have meant you know a thousand percent growth so that's the headline service like oh nobody's shopping anymore well 89 of buys still originate in a store so um and i think uh ecom you know or 2020 and 2021 certainly those numbers maybe even doubled i think in our case um ours went up by about nine percent um but we're really a wholesale model and and again back to my brand i did that intentionally because i want it to be relationship driven so i believe in main street main street stores boutique specialty stores know their customers they have relationships in their in their in their communities they are foundational to their communities and their neighborhoods foundational that buys into our brand i know who they are they know who their customer is they call me personally um you know we're happy to to entertain you know all kinds of things with our customers because we know them ecom you don't develop a relationship with and and that's that's a decision you make as a brand that you are going to be transactional and there's a lot of uh there's a lot of products out there that lend themselves to the transactional um but if you but it and it's a decision you make for your brand how you're going to do that so um it sounds like that you guys have taken a balance where you're certainly wholesale you believe in main street and and being in stores but it doesn't mean that one is exclusive to the other in other words you do have a bit of a balance is that an accurate case or should be we'll be looking at some sort of a balance and pursuing both of them i think i i mean i think you have to have some kind of online presence whether you decide to sell online is a whole other decision that's a decision you have to make i intentionally came out with a wholesale brand we have to be online because we're small so it's you know we sell online because we're not everywhere for everybody to find us otherwise so but our focus really is our our stores and we do our very best not to compete with our stores um in our e-commerce activities so for me a ratio for me is 80 80 20 max right so i would always like to be 80 store um store led my wholesale store led um and that's that's a choice right so if ecom if ecom overlaps that hits 25 or 30 that means i'm doing something wrong on the wholesale side that doesn't mean that i can't grow my ecom it just means that my pie on the wholesale side needs to get bigger now one thing you hit on i hadn't thought of we hadn't talked but it raises an interesting question is when you're getting into you guys have an online presence and you're trying not you know you do your best not to compete with the wholesale which makes sense in other words if if they're trying to sell your product and people can come onto your website and get a cheaper faster better than it tends to or you know sour the relationship about the wholesale side because then they don't have the ability to sell your product as well how do how should people think about that balance or how do you reach that balance where you have that presence people can get to know your brand find out more information but you don't create the issues with the wholesaler with the wholesale accounts yeah so uh it and it it it varies and you come across different scenarios that you have to make decisions on all the time um so a lot of a lot of stores will price match um and so you want to make sure that whatever you have out there online us our store or our stores online stores don't conflict with that and force somebody else to price match right so you have to create certain terms and conditions that you want your stores to follow and then you know decide what you're going to do if somebody breaks those conditions for us that means that we don't allow our stores to go on to amazon without permission or third-party sites so we have i believe one store that has that permission right now and they hold price they're amazing they're incredibly professional um they're a smaller business as well but you know there's no there's no discounting so what what somebody sells in a store if they um if they want to run you know store promotions and it's not searchable that's not our business and and i stay out of that but once it goes online into the public space where it's searchable then that's where i care um so and and on our own site we just don't put things on sale we'll we'll do sample sales things that you know things that have come back things that are were taken out of our you can see my showroom in the back all of that stuff gets swapped out right so it's all new it's never been worn and so we will put that up on our on our site but it's stuff that we couldn't sell to stores and some people are very happy to have our samples sample sales are amazing i love sample sales um if you fit in sample sizes it's it's the greatest um but um but also it is a matter like for us we will put things on wholesale clearance if we have things to clear which we don't um very often but when we do we put them on wholesale clearance so we give our our wholesale stores the deal to then pass to their clients first so and if you know if in fact we have stuff to do as far as that goes so there's decisions along the way on how you you know how you deal with that and how you don't compete with your own customers no i think that that's you know good ta or a good approach is you know however you're doing it make sure you're not competing with your or the wholesale customers you have because they are customers and they're trying to make the sales and if you now make it so that everybody goes and buys your product on amazon that you're selling directly and the whole seller's saying we can't compete or you know it doesn't make sense anymore you just robbed yourself of those opportunities and that's a and that's a brand decision it's a it's a brand decision and there's a lot of companies out there who don't make that decision they're happy to sell to anybody at any price they can sell it to yeah and i think that that one's most of the time probably a more short or short term approach in other words if you take that approach and you may be able to get some of those short-term sales but if you're trying to as you said establish relationships in the long term it's very difficult if not impossible to do so yeah we could go on for a much longer period of time and we'd have a great conversation but uh people would probably say okay we're reaching the end of the podcast i want to get back to my normal life so with that i always have one question i asked in the end of these podcasts but before we jump to that just as a reminder we do have the bonus uh bonus section where we're going to talk a little bit about teresa's one crazy idea so make sure if you if you're interested in hearing about her crazy idea to stay tuned after we wrap up the normal episode this is a it'll be a good one so i'm excited to talk through it but before we get there um the question i always wrap up with each episode is um you know within your industry within your area of expertise what is one of the biggest myths so so the second use the second you say brand to somebody somebody's like oh i have the greatest logo it's the greatest logo i have the greatest logo and the greatest name um hopefully hopefully the the conversation we've just had shows you that that's really not what a brand is um a a logo and a name that's a that's a visual and a verbal cue of what your brand is but that's not your brand right so you know just because you come up with a great logo or a great name does not mean you have a brand no i think that is absolutely fair i mean if i were to take you know i take an iconic brand now i'm not an apple person my wife loves apple but if you take the brand there our reputation is being innovators new inventive products now i'll argue to them do i go blue the faces to why i don't believe the brand but they have a very strong brand about that and a lot of people like that about their brand and it's not just the apple hike or apple logo so i think that that is a great myth that people think i've got my logo i've got my logo i've got the name of my business we've got the brand established now we don't have to worry about it there's a lot more to it well and one thing that you know the the ubiquitous brands are great as examples because everybody can understand and the ones that i always come back to are cook and pepsi right coca-cola and pepsico though the product i mean i believe there's a difference you can people will argue to their until they're blue in the face about whether or not there's a difference in the product i personally think there is um i'm i'm a coke drinker but i'm a neither drinker so i don't really i don't have a dog in the pipe but i mean okay so this is interesting maybe as as you don't drink either one but you probably have very different perceptions of what the two are right so for me you know coke it's like this it's refreshing it's classic it's it is um it is it i i can almost smell it i can feel it it gives me you know a different feeling and pepsi is pop culture it's pop but it's pop culture it's more it's today it's you know it's the latest trend um and the feelings you get are very different about those things and so my replay of that back to those two brands is really what their brand is yep no i i think that's that's a great point and a great example well as we wrap up we'll do the bonus question here in a minute but if people want to reach out to you they want to be a customer or client they want to be a wholesale client of wood underwear and wood apparel they want to be a employee they want to be an investor they want to be your next best friend any or all of the above what's the best way to reach out to contact you or find out more well so you can always go to woodunderwear.com w-o-o-d underwear dot com um i'm on linkedin um always happy to take uh take dms on any of that we're on all the instagram channels at wood underwear email phone all of that information is on the website so very accessible call visit give us your thoughts love to hear it also i definitely encourage people to check out or check you out at all the different ways to connect up with the business so well thank you again for coming on the podcast it's been a fun it's been a pleasure now for all of you that are listeners if uh before you log out we always ask that if you can click subscribe click share leave us a review because we want to make sure that everybody and all the startups and small businesses find out about these great areas of expertise so they can continue to build and grow their business and on that note if you ever need help with patents trademarks or anything else with your business just go to strategymeeting.com grab some time with us to chat so now with that as we wrapped up the normal portion of the episode now we got to jump to the fun part or it's all fun but the bonus question which is we get to hear a little bit about a crazy idea you've had and these are usually ideas that hey this would be fun i may never actually pursue it but i had the idea if i had them limited time money in in the ability i would pursue it so with that turn it over to you to tell us what is your one crazy idea i'm glad we brainstormed this uh in advance because i love this idea it is underwear that self combusts when you should get new underwear i mean so it's like you open your drawer after two years and that pair is no longer there it's like so it's almost like it's kind of like the magician paper that just goes up in flames and so after two years it just has a self-imposed timer that all of a sudden you just open your door and there's just a big poof of smoke in your underwear is god where it used to be that's right and you're forced to then go get fresh underwear because most people's underwear drawers need need help so yeah now now i'll ask a follow-up question because i'd have no idea do you have any idea of how you're actually going to implement the idea yes no but if you run across any technology that helps me with that send them my way all right well if i come across or if there's any listeners that have odds mods send every underwear with a package of mobs to eat through the cotton so it's kind of just a very slow eating underwear so when you're getting close you're saying okay the boss are getting close to eating it through and then just one day it's gone all right maybe we'll do that i do know some people that are in the biotech industry so maybe there's something there where they can actually do it where or with some chemical i don't know who i do it maybe it's just like the old james bond movie where this movie or this message will self-destruct them so many times and you just have a timer on the underwear where you can see it counting down the number of days you have less until it just combusts so love it love it all right well i expect that uh that wood underwear will soon be coming out with this i'll be your first customer if you buy it not because it probably because it'll be a self-imposed timer so i can get from that 90 or 95 to 100 in my underwear drawer of not having any old ones that are stuck around way too long so i'll be your first customer once once you figure out how to do it perfect perfect all right well thank you again teresa i love the crazy idea it's a fun one and thank you for coming on the podcast and sharing all your expertise definitely i'm sure it's valuable to the audience and with that we'll go ahead and wrap up the podcast and wish the next leg of your journey even better than the last thanks devin thank you so much

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