Have The Right Structure

The Inventive Journey
Episode #338
Have The Right Structure
w/ Nick Zotos
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"Take the time to structure things correctly. From a legal, financial, and tax standpoint, you want to get your business set up correctly. Intellectually property. I think it's very important to get the right counseling and to get the right structure in place beneath you to have a foundation to go forward."

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What Is The Inventive Journey?

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

ai generated transcription

 you know take the time to to uh sort of try to structure things correctly um from a sort of legal financial you know tax standpoint um you want to get your business set up correctly intellectual property um i think i think it's very important to get the right counseling and to get the right structure in place um beneath you to have sort of the foundation to go forward [Music] hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i'm your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur that's grown several startups in the seven and eight figure businesses as well as the founder and ceo of miller ip law where he helps startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks if you ever need help with yours just go to strategymeeting.com grab some time with us to chat now today we have another great guest on the podcast nick zotos and nick is a bit of a kindred spirit in the sense that he identifies as a reforming attorney so at least we have a overlap of being an attorney i haven't reformed yet i'm still maybe in the process of reforming uh but uh at the beginning of his journey so always wanted to be an entrepreneur and grew up in a uh or grew up was the first generation of his family to go to college and during that period he switched or switched between a couple majors and then also went to law school and also or and went into business i believe because he didn't want to be a litigator and i'm right there with him i wouldn't want to be a litigator either i'm in practice uh law for about 15 years primarily in tax law worked for a few different law firms during that period of time i worked with managing wealth for a lot of wealthy individuals and was always also always interested in real estate um partially because a lot of his clients had real estate holdings then he moved to north carolina he started or decided to start a real estate investing firm which is what he's doing now so that much is an introduction welcome on the podcast nick thank you devon thanks for having me that was a pretty pretty comprehensive uh introduction there i'm not sure there's much left for me to cover i think you got it all all right well i'm glad that i can take everybody's lives and condense it into 30 seconds and that's the totality of their life you did you did you your sound bit me sound like that that's right um so why don't we now unpack that journey just a bit so let's go back a bit in time and uh kind of growing up um in uh or growing up wanting to be an entrepreneur and how your journey got started there yeah i know i i think growing up um you know i didn't even know that being an entrepreneur was an option i think that uh you know i sort of came from a working-class background and um you know i think the uh the conventional wisdom was you know you just go to school and get a good job and you know live happily ever after um so you know that was sort of my orientation growing up and um you know i think it took me a while to really sort of find my sea legs and sort of the entrepreneurial ship see if you will um so you know i went went to college and um you know kind of knew what i didn't want to do um so i floundered around a little bit in college i was one of those one of those folks that sort of changed my major four or five times you know i ended up being being a super senior you know double majoring i kind of wanted to try everything except grow up and get a real job so so that was kind of my college experience and um you know i kind of oh just out of curiosity what what did you major in or double major and when you finally did graduate economics and sociology so uh the social sciences always kind of appealed to me so i think that that sort of uh is a good uh foundation for going into the legal practice as good as any why not i think it's like a great background so now you're saying okay coming out of you know doing the undergraduate kind of figuring out what you wanted to do to switch between a few different majors and finally landed on those and you're saying now when you're coming out of there where you're saying hey i know that i want to be you know an attorney i want to go to law school and i want to go down that path or did that come later kind of what made you to decide to go down the the law school route yeah it was kind of more of the well i know what i don't want to do so why don't i try this because i think i can do it um you know i also again i didn't really think of that as an option i think until really like you know towards the end of my college career i had a friend who one day was just saying ah you know i'm studying for the lsat and i was like what's that he's like oh that's the test you need to get into law school and i was like oh law school ah that sounds interesting um yeah why don't i take that why don't why don't i why don't you know it was just kind of on a whim you know um i mean but once i decided on it i mean i i'm the type of person that is like i'm i'm 110 percent ahead so i'm like i'm gonna do that and then i'm like and then i'm like a freight train you know i just like that that's all i do i get tunnel vision um so i just i just decided and i was like that's what i'm gonna do um i think uh you know it was around 2002 or so um so we were at or or sort of in the middle of the dot-com bubble for those who are sort of from that generation they remember um where there was a you know the internet uh became a commodity in the financial markets and then you know overnight it sort of um became not a commodity a lot of the bubble popped um and a lot of these startups uh failed and then along with that you know there was these accounting scandals um so it was a very kind of turbulent time in the economy in the job market and um you know around that time 2002 2003 it was really not a good time to be graduating i mean the 90s were a booming economy um you know so it was just you know all you have to do is go to college and you're guaranteed a job and then i went from that until you know hey nobody's hiring um you know because we're in the first recession you know in the past 12 years whatever so um you know so a lot of people went back to school and i went to law school no and i think that makes sense and i came a little bit i was right after you'd had the housing crash and that didn't quite hit me but a lot of the a few of the uh years before me with lawyers that were graduating kind of that same thing of they're coming out of law school right as they're after the housing crash and trying to find jobs and they were more scarce and they were trying to figure out do i try to do more schooling or what do i do and luckily by the time i graduated it subsided a lot and it made it a much easier thing but you know kind of that similar to the the doc tom boom and people going back to school a lot of the people that i was in school with were of that uh you know that took that same approach so now you're coming out of law school say okay i'm going to be an attorney i'm all in going to go and do law school and you came out and you know i think when we chatted a bit before he didn't want to be a litigator or well that wasn't of interest and i don't want to be a litigator we do we have other litigators here in the office but i am it's just not the lifestyle of what i want to do and so i definitely just want to know what your personality and your you're acclimated to do i mean you know i i was uh you know i really enjoyed economics and statistics um and i had a uh a professor in law school who really sort of steered me towards tax law um and i took all the tax courses that my law school offered um and um you know decided to end up doing a master of laws and taxation out in new york at nyu um and you know a professor kind of steered me towards that and said you know look if this is something that you want to focus in you know this is um you know a valuable thing sort of uh you know develop an expertise and um you know really hone in on your craft so that was the route that i went no no that makes sense and i think it's a good area of you know taxes as long as the government's around there's going to be taxes and uh you're saying hey i like you know statistic i like economics i like the numbers and those type of things that can be a a great fit and you did that i think for a period of 15 years is that right yeah so i graduated from law school at 0.6 and then the lm program at 07. um went to go practice with a firm in in new york city in midtown manhattan a well-established firm fortunately i was able to sort of hit the labor market right before uh the great recession and the real estate crash so i was able to kind of have a year or two under my belt when that happened um and it really i remember i was in new york at the time in 2009 uh when lehman collapsed and i was working down the street from lehman and um i remember seeing the people file out of you know lehman brothers they went bankrupt um they were they were the first big huge bank to go bankrupt um and it was a big deal and i was there and i i saw it um and um it was a scary time you know fortunately for me i mean i i you know sort of had a couple years under my belt and i was at a well-established firm that had you know a solid base of clients so i was able to weather that storm in terms of the labor market but i'm well aware of a lot of uh law school graduates from 2009 2010 2011 law firms just weren't hiring period in new york there was basically like a three to four year hiring freeze where they just top tiring associates um so it was a really tough time and um you know i was fortunate to sort of just be lucky to have uh landed on my feet but sort of before all that turbulence there so i just kind of stayed put you know i said you know the economy is really rough i i'm very fortunate to have sort of a stable uh role here with the stable firm um so i just uh sort of put my head down and just kept working during that period and um you know i had to make adjustments as well um you know because a lot of the the corporate deal work just completely stopped um it completely dried up um there were no deals banks were not lending nobody was doing deals um so i had to i actually had the uh uh pizza you know reposition my practice a little bit and pivot to you know that's the thing that you sort of recognize being in practice um and being an entrepreneur is that you have to pivot you have to adjust to you know whatever the market demands are uh whatever the client demands are so i pivoted from focusing on sort of pure corporate um and transactional tax to doing a lot of estate planning um because folks were still doing estate planning because there were still folks with the states that uh needed to do planning um and unfortunately i was at a firm where we had that sort of very well established well-heeled uh client base that uh had a demand for that and my tax background sort of uh fit into that as well so that was one one of probably the many pivots in my career there um you know when i was practicing in new york now you're practicing and it definitely makes sense you make that you know that pivot and you know it it's one where you you have to adapt as the you know the world that there are changes around you and so you get into you know a bit more of managing you know as you're getting into that kind of managing wealth for wealthy individuals helping on the tax side and maybe even on the state side and whatnot i think as we talked again before you'd also became interested in real estate and i think you mentioned at least partially because you saw a lot of your clients had real estate holdings is that right yeah yeah that was very eye-opening for me because um you know i hadn't really necessarily been exposed to that before in terms of just the private wealth um and frankly the vastness of it i think uh you know in in new york city uh particularly in manhattan i mean we were a park avenue law firm um a lot of park avenue clients um and a lot of generational wealth um so that was definitely kind of eye-opening um to sort of be exposed to that early on in my practice and um i learned a ton you know like i said um you know worked with a lot of very wealthy families a lot of them had real estate holdings real estate investments um and so forth so you know having my tax background and sort of being exposed to to that type of clientele i just sort of uh soaked it up like a sponge you know um it was uh just i've always been sort of very um very uh sort of intrigued if you will uh inquisitive about how things work um so i just uh i just loved uh sort of getting under the hood sort of uh see how the sausage was made if you will it was really an insider's view you know i mean is their tax attorney and you you really sort of almost know more about their financials than they do certainly the legal side absolutely maybe not as much how they do it but at least what they're doing and on the legal side so no i think that that definitely provides an interesting insight and that you know so now you're saying okay i can start to want to know how things work and kind of how the you know the sausage is made so to speak and start to get into real estate now did you start to invest yourself did you start to invest with others did you just kind of watch from the sidelines or did you just make the leap and say okay i'm gonna you know leave the legal practice i'm just gonna you know one day i woke up i'm tired of the legal practice and i'm gonna start doing real estate investing and going down that route or kind of how did you make that transition yeah it was definitely a transition it's been a lengthy process i think it kind of started with sort of the awakening in the education and then um you know i i mean being being an econ major in statistics uh and a tax attorney i mean i i i in focusing in wealth building i mean my whole career was dedicated to building wealth and preserving wealth so right so that that's sort of the orientation of my thinking so um you know i've always appreciated the um you know investing i've always had sort of you know an investing mindset you know it's really a mindset um and um of sort of leveraging what you have to to trade up for more if you will um and sort of um having a vision of uh of of what you could achieve so very early in my career i started i started saving you know as much as i possibly could to uh to start investing um i lived well below my means for for many years didn't drive a car didn't take a lot of vacations you know i had a lot of student loans uh like a lot of folks who do graduate from law school in new york is is not not a very inexpensive place to live so i lived uh very very below my means for many years in order to sort of save for my first investment and then i made my first investment um in long island city in queens um i think it was around 2011 uh around that time and um you know again it was sort of uh you know i like to think that uh i have a knack for for timing things right you know a lot of things in investing um you know in life it's really it's it's all about timing um so it's sort of seeing what is there and visualizing what could be there um so i i was looking to make some investments and i just you know felt that um you know it's kind of one of the things that i like about real estate is you you just know it when you see it um you know i'm not i'm not very big on the stock market that's not my thing um i know a lot of folks who are into that make a lot of money doing that but real estate has just always made sense to me you know when people ask me you know what's the best thing to invest in i always tell them whatever makes sense to you um because then then you're you're gonna you're gonna be invested in it you're gonna understand it you're gonna be comfortable with it um you know it has to has to fit your your appetite for risk you know it has to it has to be something that that you understand so for me that was always real estate so that was um just a matter of time um you know it was i was just always wired for that no and i think that they're you know i like the idea of you you invest in something you understand in other words don't go off you know as an example while i understand cryptocurrency to a degree i understand i have several clients that work on it i don't understand it from the sense that right now it doesn't seem to be used as a currency this seems to be a asset that people keep investing in but i don't understand what is ever what use is ever going to have it's not like a company that makes something it's not like um you know something that's a currency that's traded and so i because i'm not saying that it may not be the best thing and may not make a whole lot of sense for people that are investing in it but because i don't understand that i don't want to invest in it because i don't want to invest in something and understand i like the idea of you know the deals that you're going to invest in the things you're going to do make sure you understand them and that seems like it took you in a direction that was beneficial and so so you save up you say okay i'm going to um you know start investing in real estate and i was that before or after you moved to north carolina uh that was before so that was in new york um like i said that was in long island city queens which is um an area that is really developed in in an explosive way since then so like i said i mean i sort of got in at the right time um when when we were sort of still in the recession um and um you know it turned out to be just wonderful timing get it so you get into it it's okay i'm gonna you start out in doing it near queens and then what prompted the move to north carolina um well it was personal and professional um you know i think it was just time for a change um and um you know i was looking to settle down to start a family and um and also i knew that i had the entrepreneurial itch and that i wanted to do real estate and that um new york city was probably not going to be the easiest place to start that correct or or inexpensive place to start for many reasons for many reasons right so i i made the change i uh you know it's kind of a kind of an interesting story um you know actually just got in the car and and drove down to north carolina and drove down to charlotte and um and you know was kind of got off the expressway and you know actually saw a house uh an open house that was for sale and toured the house and and um you know my wife and i kind of looked at each other and said oh this is this is really really quaint you know we could uh see ourselves living here and then fast forward it was you know just a matter of months later you know i had gotten an offer um for a law firm down here and we moved down here and actually purchased the house down the street from that that open house that we reviewed um so it was um it all happened rather quickly but uh you know i just you know feel like when you put the the energy behind it um you know that it's not necessarily coincidental that um you know there's momentum building up behind things behind the scenes that you don't necessarily see and then and then it happens um so yeah it just kind of it was very quick now you said now you've moved you know it was quick you found the house it all works out those type of things which all make sense now are you still you mentioned the law firm as you move down so you're still working for a law firm is that part of it or you moved completely into real estate investing and doing that as a firm or kind of how did you as you move down in get settled in and kind of figure out what you're gonna do how where did you land up or kind of where you at today yeah so that's a that's an interesting story as well so you know when i came down here i was really focused on on you know i had um you know family and financial obligations and really focused on sort of building up a practice um you know even though i sort of uh knew ultimately you know long-term you know that i still wanted to do this entrepreneurial thing i wanted to do real estate um you know went from a law firm went to an accounting firm and um you know sort of never gave up on that um that thread you know and and i'm a big sort of believer in in the law of attraction and that you know if you really put energy into something and and action you know to it that um sort of universe will create opportunities for you but you have to be looking for it so literally one day i was walking down the street thinking about you know i was really kind of racking my head about what's my next investment gonna be you know because i was just always you know what's the next thing what's going to be my next investment how am i going to make this happen right um and i was literally thinking about that walking down the street and i saw one of my neighbors was building a pool house in their backyard and it was like a light bulb went out of my head and i had an epiphany and i was like i've got a really big backyard i bet i could build a house in my backyard just kind of you know without even thinking and then i was like actually you know i probably maybe could actually build a house in my backyard so i went back and researched my deed you know being an attorney i sort of knew how to do the legal research uh research the zoning laws and actually found out that um my house was sitting on sort of what used to be two lots um but it was straddling the lots so uh on its face it looked like that i'd have to demolish the house in order to sort of build anything um you know and i talked to a surveyor about it i talked to a couple of uh zoning attorneys about it and they basically sort of laughed at me and said you know you can't do that you know you you've got to demolish it um and sort of you know i'm the type of person that if you sort of tell me what i can't do then i'm i'm gonna kind of make it a point to do it so i kind of rolled up my sleeves and said well you know in my in my day job i'm pretty good at reading code i'd call myself a professional code reader um so uh you know i rolled up my sleeves and learned the zoning law and um learn about all the setback requirements the volume requirements the density requirements all the zoning laws you know and basically figured out that there was a way that i could sort of reorient my lot and and subdivide it in a way that i could create a buildable lot but there was one last hurdle that i had to clear and um there was a porch on the old house that was uh basically in one of the setbacks but there was an exception for one of the setbacks but there was a chimney inside of the porch that uh basically was considered part of the house not the porch that didn't meet the exception this is this is just how deep i had to go into the zoning code i mean there was one point where i was literally crawling around outside of the bushes like taking measurements like to do the survey myself basically because no surveyor would do it because i thought it was ridiculous um that's how deep i went to the zoning code so basically it came down to this one measurement that i needed to clear in order to get the zoning approval so i found a surveyor who's willing to do it and he's like you know you got a lot of zoning problems and i was like i know i know don't worry about it let me take care of that you just draw it up so he he drew it up and and um you know basically i i found out that the the chimney had ended up clearing the setback by it was literally a fraction of an inch a fraction of an inch so i took it to the zoning people and i said congratulations um you know you can you can you know basically do this crazy project where you're building a house in your backyard so that's what i did um and from that point on you know it was uh that that was that you know the rest was sort of uh the easy part if you will uh the hard part was was getting all the proof approvals through the zoning um so that was that was a very interesting process so kind of going through that is my very first um you know by the way i was doing this all while i was working you know a very demanding full-time job i mean i was working in in public accounting for a big four firm um you know uh which is not a nine to five job um so this this was you know what i was doing on in my spare time uh you know basically uh late nights and in in weekends um so i i did all this entire project from start to finish in less than two years um so i kind of figured you know okay if i can do that you know part-time um you know let's see what i can do when i put my talents and abilities to what i really want to do sort of full-time um and it was kind of like another one of those things where the universe was telling me something and everything came together at the same time and and so i finished building my house my new house uh and moved into it and was you know getting ready to sell my old house um and then kovit hit um right when i was doing that um so i had to sell my house during you know right literally the first week when it was like in march of i guess it was what year did copy come out 2019 2020 uh 20 people like it's better out forever i think it was uh 2020 probably 2020. we'll go with 20 money trying to move into my new house list my old house for sale when when this was like when there was a ban on like you couldn't like show your house um and um you know i ended up ended up doing that you know selling my house i took that that money and paid off all my law school loans and then uh that same week you know ended up you know leaving my practice and and and jumping into this full time because i basically felt like you know um you know me sort of following my passion for what i wanted to do had put me in that position and then i sort of felt uh obligated that um now the universe was sort of telling me that this was my opportunity you know to really go for it to try to try um so i just haven't looked back since i haven't looked back since sounds like it was a great opportunity and that worked out well and it was definitely kind of a lot of times when you jump in dive in get going then you never want to look back because you enjoy it too much and so it sounds like you certainly have the opportunity to uh to find your passion so that's a great journey and it kind of takes us a bit to where you're at today so with that it's a great the great place to transition to the two questions i ask at the end of each podcast now just as a quick heads up for the listeners um i do uh we are doing the bonus question as well we'll talk about a little bit about uh your your intellectual property question but before we go to the bonus question the normal two air questions i always end the podcast off are um first question is along your journey what was the worst business decision you ever made what'd you learn from it the worst business decision i ever made um you know part of me feels that uh you know that there's no such thing as a mistake that they're all learning opportunities learning experiences um and everything that i've been through sort of put me in the position that i'm you know that i'm in now and and you just sort of have to go through the growing pains okay well they don't reframe them but what was the hardest learning experience that you had well i was gonna give you a mistake all right then give me the mistake i just didn't know if you were playing the attorney card no i'm i'm getting to it all right but um so being somebody who is i you know i'm not a mark sales or marketing guru you know and being an entrepreneur sales and marketing is you know fundamental to any business right i mean i'm always looking for partners and investors and deals um so you know i i'm not i'm i'm not trying to be any sort of social media um wizard or anything like that but you know sort of being a neophyte if you will to social media and building an online platform you know and i definitely spent a lot of money in that area and one of the areas that you know i really knew very little to nothing about you know was like um seo search engine optimization and to be honest i i spent quite a bit of money uh to to invest in doing a lot of seo optimization um and what i've learned is that it's really more of an art form than a science but um you know those are the things that you learn when you try i guess but um some things you you know i guess as an entrepreneur you know if you've got some budget it's easy to sort of throw money at it and try to solve it um and you learn the hard way sometimes so i think that you know when seo i i love seo on the one hand because it you can you know you're not once you get it there you're not having to pay for the traffic all the time it makes sense on the other hand it's as much of an art form takes a lot of time to figure it out if you figure it out and then it seems like about the time you figured out they changed the algorithm and you had access to it yeah but i think that you know it's one of those where it is enticing and i think there's benefits to it we also have to be careful because it could be a black hole of mine it can be a black hole exactly well now or with that second question always ask along your uh you know if you're talking now i was against i was going to repeat this the first question i was i almost did that so second question is is if you're talking to someone that's just getting into a startup or a small business what be the one piece of advice you'd give them oh boy that's a really good question um gee i guess i'm i'm biased i'm partial i mean i guess i would say uh you know take the time to to uh sort of try to structure things correctly um from a sort of legal financial you know tax standpoint um you want to get your business set up correctly intellectual property um i think i think it's very important to get the right counseling and to get the right structure in place um beneath you to have sort of the foundation to go forward no and i think that's a good takeaway and a lot of times you know you get excited with the business you want to get started on it and you always want to dive into the fun or exciting parts you want to get the logo you want to get a business card you want to get the you know the website up which are all important so don't get me wrong everybody like you know it's always fun to get the logo business cards i don't i don't know if i love quite as much but you know on the website and other things but i think getting a lot of that foundation in place before you dive in can make it a much better experience and can avoid a lot of the issues so i think that's like a great takeaway well before we dive to the bonus question um first of all thank you for coming on the podcast it's been a fun it's been a pleasure now for all of you that are listeners if you have your own journey to tell and you'd like to share your journey feel free to go to inventiveguest.com apply to be on the show a couple more things make sure to look or click subscribe share and leave us a review because we want to make sure that everyone finds out about all of our awesome episodes and last but not least if you ever need help with the patents trademarks or anything else with your business just go to strategymeeting.com now i flipped it and i did i almost i i've been messing up on the end of the podcast today so i'll have to repent sometime but i didn't give you an opportunity if people want to reach out to you if they want to be an investor they want to be a customer or client maybe on the tax side they still have some questions and they think that you're going to be awesome or they want to pick your brain they want to be an employee they want to be an investor they want to be your next best friend any you're all of the above what's the best way to reach out to you contact you find out more my website it's a www.newlevelinvestments.net so yeah go check it out i i try to try to keep it updated with content you know like i said i'm not a social media uh maven yet but i definitely you know i try to try to update it with videos content um just you know i always try to bring value to people i always try to you know even if they don't end up working with me um you know i think you know what i do is very relationship driven you know so i'm very focused on building relationships i view investors um like my clients you know i've always in my practice i was very focused on building relationships it wasn't about the deal it's always about the relationship because if you have that trust then you know that when they have a legal issue when they want to invest you know who they're going to go back to they're going to go they're going to go the people want to work with who they like know and trust um so you know i'm not i'm not about selling a deal you know if i'm almost happy to talk about you know real estate investing or any questions that people have i'm always available out there awesome well i definitely encourage people to check out the website reach out and definitely make that connection so with that um we will transition right now to the bonus question so it's always kind of fun we get to talk about your journey talk about the mistakes you made talk about the advice you have and then we shift a bit of gears and talk a little about something that i'm certainly passionate about which is on the intellectual property side so with that turn the bonus question over you to ask what's your uh top intellectual property question yeah i've i've actually had this question on my list for a while um so and you're you're the right person to ask it's how do i know uh if or when that i should you know trademark my my brand my business my logo you know what what are the some of the considerations that go into that um i you know that's um yeah a lot of your listeners no i think it's a good question it's one that comes up and people often have that and is i don't know that there is a hard line bright line you know one size fits all kind of a rule but the easiest way or the best way that i've found is the analogy is you know if you're building a business if you're building a brand and it's reaching the point it doesn't have to have reached the point you do want to do it before it reaches a point but you're saying hey it's reaching the point where i it's going to have kind of an ouch factor in other words if you had to change your brand if somebody came along and sent you a cease and desist letter or you found out that you're infringing someone's brand or somebody came along and copied your brand and you had to change it in other words and he said hey if i had to go through that exercise it's gonna hurt and you know it's going to put a lot of time money and dollars behind it or marketing or you know a lot of you know a lot of brand and reputation if you're getting to that point to where it has that intrinsic value to where it would hurt it would have that out factor then it's time to get that protected but on the other hand you're saying hey you know well if i had to change it yeah it wouldn't be fine but it wouldn't be that big of a deal i just choose a new name maybe get a newer url and away i go then you probably haven't reached that point where it has enough value that you're thinking of protecting it so that's probably kind of the the best kind of rule of thumb is if you're getting to a point that if you had to change it it would have an ouch factor on your business and it would be you know and have an impact then you want to protect it because it has that value if it doesn't have that value yet doesn't mean you won't have it in the future but you can hold off now doesn't mean you can't do it earlier if you want to do it earlier earlier the better and most things with legal especially with intellectual property early you know better is always better earlier is always better than late but if you're saying hey you know if you're a lot of startups a lot of businesses you always have more uh more things to spend money on the money to spend that's kind of the best rule of thumb that i found okay good good practical advice all right well with that appreciate the the question always fun to talk a little bit about trademarks uh we'll go ahead and wrap up this episode so thank you again nick for coming on the podcast it's been a fun it's been a pleasure and wish to wish you the next leg of your journey even better than the last thanks for having me it's been a pleasure

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