Be Vulnerable

Be Vulnerable

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The Inventive Journey

Starting and growing a business is a journey. On The Inventive Journey, your host, Devin Miller walks with startups along their different journeys startups take to success (or failure). You also get to hear from featured guests, such as venture firms and angel investors, that provide insight on the paths to a successful inventive journey.

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i know i know a ton about that but i am a first-time entrepreneur and there's a lot that i don't know so the biggest thing for me was i need to figure out how to be vulnerable and willing to ask people around me to learn to be open to learning every day to understand it's okay to say you know i've never written code how should i evaluate people that write code for my company so i don't get you know screwed how do i make sure i make good decisions on who i'm choosing and by being vulnerable and asking for help within the ecosystem i think it made my path and would make other paths for other entrepreneurs so much easier you have to be a little bit vulnerable and ask for help hey everyone this is devin miller here with another episode of the inventive journey i am your host devin miller the serial entrepreneur that's grown several businesses the seven and eight figure businesses as well as the uh founder and ceo of miller ip law where we help startups and small businesses with their patents and trademarks and uh today on the podcast we have another great guest so steve walsh and uh won't uh take or ruin too much of a surprise about his journey uh but to give you a little bit so he worked for uh quite a while with uh cox communications and comcast and we won't hold you hold it against you um comcast is known for not having as good of customer service as many others but then you had a good career doing the corporate gig but then you decided to uh just branch out on your own and to do uh what you're doing now with uh procurements and we'll let you talk a little bit more about what that is and what you're doing and uh doing uh you've been doing some raising or fundraising with friends and families and enough to get to the market and all those fun things and now you're in the hopefully in the growth stage and getting into the market and taking that dive so with that welcome to the podcast thanks so much devon i really appreciate you having me on today let me tell my story a little bit so well i appreciate you coming on so i told just a very brief and i went over like 30 plus years of a career in about 20 seconds so maybe with that if you want to take us back a little bit and tell us a little bit about your journey that got to where you're at today that was a pretty good job by the way you did a pretty good job for 20 seconds for my career i don't know if i can do it justice but let me try so i am i like to describe myself as a um recovering operator and current entrepreneur and angel investor so as you said i spent 20 plus years in technology working for some unbelievably great companies in cox and comcast and about two years ago decided to um leave corporate america to become an entrepreneur and you know at the time i really didn't know what this journey was going to be like but i could tell you the last two years of my life have been transformative and i've spent it learning and building uh this company within this what i like to call this startup ecosystem that is companies like myself a small company in procurence that i'm the ceo of and we're trying to build that company to help small and medium business owners buy technologies in a digital way and at the same time um i've been able to get introduced to other great companies because i pretty quickly realized i wasn't the only one with a really good idea and there were other great entrepreneurs that were building companies who have done it before more successfully and i started to get introduced to them and i started to look at opportunities to invest in their companies and help them as an advisor so uh while i'm building my own company i've started to invest in about 30 other startups in this ecosystem and um the one thing i will say is i call myself a recovering uh operator because i don't know if i would ever want to go back to working for anybody else i think you could probably attest to this once you've worked for yourself and you're in this this this bubble i'll call it the startup ecosystem bubble it's really hard to break away because you get a tremendous amount of freedom you get a tremendous amount of flexibility and you really get to choose the type of work you want to do and the people you want to do it with which is just it's an unbelievable gift on a daily basis so hopefully that gives you an idea of my journey it is now i'm going to make you go all the way back no it gives it very good so but if we were to go back so you worked with i think it was comcast and cox communications for quite a while 20 plus years is that right about 20 plus years in the industry yeah i had brown hair when i started by the way hey it's just like kids and industry and everything else eventually they're going to make you either lose your hair or make it go great so that's it so you did that so you know so that's a good long while that you're in the the working with what would be very big corporations and as i joke to be getting you know they you know at least comcast you know they're always not they're not known for their customer service but they certainly have a very big brand a very big reputation services provide a lot of service to a lot of people and so you know 20 and 20 years is a good long period is a pretty good stretch in the career to work for those companies when he got you know when you got to where how did you get after 20 years you're saying okay i'm done with that i want to do something different i want to get into the startup world or what was kind of that trigger what made you decide to take your career in a different direction uh i think it was i've spent a long time uh in this space as you said and what i realized was um you know you joked about you know comcast reputation i i realize now the best part about what i do now is i don't have to cover my shirt when i go to the grocery store so i get you know the people pointing the finger at me of who i work for but what i realized pretty quickly was it wasn't um it wasn't because the company didn't have great products the products actually were really great what it was and what the challenge for small and medium business owners was um they didn't like the process of how it was they had to purchase these products they felt that they got to call a call center and meet with sales people it's this long process it's hard and every time change the name right change it from comcast to att verizon and people just go oh it's just hard and i looked at that and said it shouldn't be hard every small business and medium business owner today wants more self-service options they know they need technology but they want someone to help them with it and they want an easy way to do it so i looked at it and said well in my life i use amazon for consumer goods and kayak for travel and insurance for assurance why can't i build a platform that brings all the best providers together enough if i'm a small business like miller i p law firm in utah based on my address i can show you the cable company the phone company and all your options you can look at them and make a decision and then make that purchase and do it all digitally without talking to anybody and i took a look at were people doing this and there wasn't a lot of people doing it because it's really hard and i knew enough to be dangerous coming from the industry so i looked at it and said i'm going to take my 20 plus years experience and i'm gonna go solve this problem from customers and i'm gonna go build a company purely from the customer perspective that takes into account their needs and what how they wanna buy and that really that's what made me make the lead so i think that's a great answer and i'm going to dive into it a bit more just because so you have the idea because i mean i'm diving into drilling in just a little bit deeper because you know a lot of times you're in an industry you can see something that doesn't work or something that you think can be improved right you're saying why isn't this done and you'll have a lot of people that that's as far as they ever get right they always have the idea and they say okay you know this is i think that somebody you know so he's i think it'd be a great idea if somebody go do this so that nobody ever does it they're always talking about it you talk about it for 15 years or 10 years and eventually somebody doesn't you say oh i have that idea 10 years ago and if i'd only done it i would be the one that was the millionaire type of thing right so what was the motivation or how did you get okay nobody else is doing this it should be done to i'm going to because you know you look at you know the companies you're working for big companies i'm sure they have good benefits they pay you well they great benefits and so yeah what what makes you take the leap say okay i have this idea it's not out there i'm going to go do it i'm not going to wait for somebody else to do it because there's you know is it a so incremental thing you're just finally saying okay i've got financially secure enough that i can make the leap or i've the technology has come far enough along or i just had it and i just want to do my own thing here kind of what what was the final tipping point and the motivation that now i've seen others aren't doing this and i can do but what made you actually go out and do it i think um i have a co-founder uh my good friend mo yosefi and he and i've been talking about this for probably about 10 to 11 years and it all centered around customers and just the process and how frustrated customers would get with our industry in the buying process and the more we looked at it the more we studied it when i finally get ready to make the leap and i was looking for who else is doing this and who else is being successful and wasn't finding anyone we looked at each other and said no one else can do this we have to do this because we've been doing this for 20 plus years and we have the industry knowledge and if you don't understand from working for the belly of the beast and understand how these products are sold and why they're packaged that way if you're going to have a very tough time building the type of company customers are going to want and i've dealt with customers for so long getting frustrated with the process that i'm like nobody else is going to do this and the carriers aren't going to do it for themselves because no carrier 18t verizon anybody is going to put up a transparent marketplace where a customer can make choice of all the providers so i looked at it and said someone has to go build this the technology to your point now has come along where you know you can build a marketplace uh relatively inexpensively now there are a lot of codes out there and technologies you can leverage and i also knew where to go to get the agreements in place and how to structure these deals so i had industry knowledge that gave us really a leg up on how can we monetize this so that's really when i looked around at who could do it mo and i looked at each other and said nobody else can do it but us so let's just go do it and a lot of you know a lot of folks have looked at it and said well they're on a lot of competition and someone else can beat you to the punch i'm like they can have at it but no one's done it for the last 20 years so it might as well be me and i'm sure a lot of people said the same thing to the founders of kayak or trip advisor or jeff bezos when he started amazon nobody's going to buy stuff online i'm a big zappos um fan i'd buy a lot of shoes on zappos everybody said you can never buy shoes online well they're the largest retailer of shoes in the world now so i guess they proved them wrong so i think this is just another one of those scenarios where just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it shouldn't be done and i think we were the most qualified to do it all right no i think that makes uh makes great sense so now you said okay no we're the only ones that can do it and i don't know it no only was the best position to do it right i mean i think we're i think we're very well positioned to do it yeah that's what's up everybody i i you know enough time money and resources you can always get something done but best position the one that makes the most sense and so you say okay we're going we're going to make the jump we're going to you know make the decision that we're going to go out and do it on your own so as you do that how was the transition so i mean because you work for a big company now you're saying we're going to go do us on my own how was that transition for you or how did you you know what was the process of leaving and getting your startup up and going and taking the idea from the idea stage to the concept phase actually building it kind of how did that go for you yeah it's been a journey all right it's been probably about a year and a half of doing this uh and mind you i don't come with a coding background i come with a sales and operations background and an industry background so and i don't look like your typical you know founder right i'm not 20 years old i didn't just come out of stanford and i majored in computer science but i felt i had something to offer so the biggest thing i had to do was immerse myself in this ecosystem and start surrounding myself with people that have done this before whether it's people that have run companies and raised seed capital series a whether it's people that are in the coding space and could introduce me to developers that i should get associated with i started to spend a lot of time with other entrepreneurs like yourself devon that and just started candidly being humble being vulnerable and saying look i'm a great operator but i'm a first-time entrepreneur so i'd love your help in this or i'd love introductions to people that write code or i'd love introductions to people that can help me on the marketing side and that's how i started to build my team and i surrounded myself with some great entrepreneurs that were willing and what i realized about this ecosystem pretty quickly is that entrepreneurs want to help other entrepreneurs because they realize how hard it is and that they were once there so by making the right connections and opening myself up to those people they just went out of their way to help me and that's really how we started and we started meeting and and i like to say we went through the tour of you know every country in the world to find developers that could help us and really bring our vision to light but i met almost all of my vendors whether it's my my virtual cto my virtual cmo through other entrepreneurs that had done it before and that was really if there's one hack i've learned through all of this it's that entrepreneurs want to help entrepreneurs and if you really want to know what it's like to work for it with a developer or a bank or a lawyer just ask the entrepreneur because they'll tell you hmm no i think that that's a good point so so now as you you start to get yourself plug i would say plugged into the community i don't know it sounds overused computer you know terminology or but i think it's attic or it describes it well you kind of kind of get plugged into the community you hear learn from other people you get that information you get that feedback and everything else so then they didn't get have to get to the work of building the company right which is now we have to figure out how to make this how to build this how to make land those contracts how to um you know get marketed out get it out to people making all that so walk me through a little bit of that process so now that you you made that leap you've got made this started to make the connections get the feedback how did you go about building a company well it's you know so there are things that i've run massive businesses i've run 500 million dollar businesses with 200 employees so i knew a lot about businesses and budgeting but there are things that i'd never done before i'll use a good example that's in your space i knew i needed if i wanted to raise money i needed to be a delaware corporation delaware c corp i've never done that what's involved in creating a delaware c corp how do you do that um i needed to raise money so i understood because i had been investing before but how do you use a convertible note versus a safe do we do a priced round what does that look like so those were sort of the table stakes that i had to honestly learn uh as a first-time entrepreneur so that's what we started incorporated the company and a lot of people say you know worry about that stuff later a lot of entrepreneurs i met with all hit me over the head and said you're going to want to be an llc and worry about the corporation later spend the money up front and do it because converting it later is really hard and there's so much peril doing it so that's a great example i got from other entrepreneurs so we just we formed the corporation and spent probably six to eight months finding the right developer working on the code which uh we're at the place now where the site is up we're up on all social platforms we're doing our first uh marketing campaign this week on facebook and we've got about a half a dozen prospects that we've talked to customers engaged we've got proposals out to so we're at the point now of let's start generating revenue and we're doing a launch event in the next couple of weeks for our investors to showcase the websites of the world and take it to market because you know as one of my investors said revenue solves all problems so we got to get to revenue it's nice that we've raised some money and built a nice product and got it up on social but you got to get customers and monetize it to get to that next level no i think that's a good point so and i'm gonna we'll get to that but one thing i thought was interesting because kind of the preload to the pre prelude if i can say the right word hear that is you talked a little bit about you know so you incorporated i think it was around last year in delaware is that what i remember from the top and then you did around with you know what people call friends and family around whereas you know connect either friends or family or at least people you have connections with to get kind of that seed money to have enough to get your proof of concept or minimally viable product even though i hate the word beautifully viable product which is so do i i'll i'll give by 20 second tag just because minimally viable product in my mind always means that you say i'm going to put out the the crappiest product i can as quick as i can and see if i can make any money off of it and i always just say what i think makes more sense at least in my mind is you almost do what i call maximum viable product work let's see what our constraints are how much money do we have how much time do we have what resources do we have and let's put out the best product we can within those constraints we want to make sure we get a product out because to your point you need to make money but if you put out the worst product then you don't know if it's really because you just put out a crappy product that nobody wants to buy and why don't you do the best product you can within what you can and then see how it goes but there's my there's my 30 second tirade so but you did the you did the friends and family round so how did you know that's what a lot of people a lot of startups or entrepreneurs will often do right you go to the people say i got this great idea i think it's going to make a lot of money and it's going to change the world and all the things you tell people you know the pitch that you give them but how is it going to friends and family how was it doing that rage in that round was it easy and everybody was knocking down you'd go over to get money was it like pulling teeth and you had to go and beg and clean and steal type of thing or how was that because i think that's an experience a lot of uh startups and small businesses go through so it's interesting and i appreciate you bringing that up so when i first started in my head i'm like okay let's go talk to super rangers let's go talk to some micro vcs all around boston i live in boston so we in the northeast and i probably talked to 30 or 40 of them and every it was almost like it was groundhog day it was hey this is a good idea but you're a first time you're you're a 20-year operator first-time entrepreneur you've never built code you've never built a cut you haven't had an exit so why don't you go build your mvp do a small raise yourself and then come back to us when you have a little bit of traction because this is a very interesting idea and after hearing that 30 or so times and your head wants to come off because it's a hard process i know and i was sitting down and i'm like let's do this differently why don't we just bring it to the people that know it's the best people that we've known for 20 years in the industry that have seen me build multi-billion dollar businesses from scratch have seen me take companies growing at double digits a year and build world-class sales organizations and talk to them about our idea and when i stopped talking to institutions and started talking to people that know me the best my probably the best comment i got was from one of my largest investors he's the ceo of a company and my nickname's walsh and he goes walsh your deck stinks but i'll give you 25 grand just because it's you and i know what you can do and it's not about the deck it's about who you are and the entrepreneur and the idea and what you can do with it and probably the nicest comment i could have gotten at that stage and i'm fortunate enough that i had 10 other investors come on board folks that have all known me and my career and some newer investors that this might have been their first to second investment but they believed enough in the idea to take a chance on it and what i really love is my every one of the investors has been active whether it's on social they're constantly pinging me and it's not hey how's my money doing it's really hey steve how can i help i was thinking about you today and i was thinking about marketing and i have a great marketing guy you need to meet all right thinking about how we could drive customers here and i want you to introduce this person every time they talk to me they're talking about how they can help our company grow and i could not ask for a better group and i think if you know a piece of advice i would give to others going down this journey is simply start with people that know you the best because they're one going to be candid but two they're going to believe in you more than any stranger ever can it doesn't matter how good you are at sales the people that know you the best are going to see the holes but they're also going to believe in you when you need it no and i think that's but even if you are it's and i i'm completely agree because i think that part of the reason often times are many of the times unless you're wealthy enough or you have what you know takes a very small investment you don't need any friend but if you're doing any sort of project product or a service that needs an investment i think a lot of times institutional investors are going to say you know we why not go out if friends and family and people that know you and that you worked with or they care about you and those type of things aren't willing to invest if they don't believe in you why should we type of a thing and vice versa if you can go and convince hey here all the people that i do know me that are willing to invest even if it's a relatively small amount they're saying okay at least shows that they have confidence in you and that you have the ability that you're serious enough about it right that you're actually going to because if you take friends and family money it's a lot harder to just go and say i'd give it my best try it didn't work out type of a thing because these are people on the flip side you know and you want to make sure that if you take their money you give it your best shot so i think it's always a great indicator going to those people they do know you that have worked with you before that are the people that you have connections with and if they're willing to invest it shows that they have confidence in you and it also ties you more into you are you're going to fulfill your promise because you don't want to let those people down well you know that and when i look at it you know this isn't a cap table of my uncles and cousins it's a cap table of three ceos of companies a couple of senior vice presidents from from companies like i mentioned like cox comcast industry people that when they see them on the captive people are going to go wow so-and-so this is good so i think for me it was validation of our idea it also helps us you mentioned signaling it helps us signal to future investors hey these are some industry experts that back this company pretty early that's a really good sign so it wasn't just me going to an uncle it was me going to people in the industry that i have tremendous amount of respect for some people that i've worked for in the past have been mentors to me to say i think this could be the future of the industry they agreed and they came into the company as an investor so that's really worked out well and um i think it helps us with whatever the next round looks like for us i think it helps us set the table because we've got the right people behind us no and i agree that and it's a lot of time is almost kind of what the industry would call a lead investor right meaning if somebody has done the diligence they or you know they state their name on it a lot of times people coming along after will say okay well they trust you type of a thing we'll trust you as well so i think that it does a lot of good so now you've done that you've been built you raised some money from the you know brit i'll call friends and family but industry experts people you knew connections and whatnot enough to start getting to the marketplace but i think that kind of brings us up to where you're at today if you're getting ready to launch you you've got the product out there you've at least got things and you're now getting ready to really push it out there and get that cash flow coming in and build it to a big business so you look at what's the next six to 12 months look like for you where do you see things going i think for us um two things have to happen one is we need to get to revenue which is need to start monetizing the site and proving out our concept that small and media business owners want choice they want transparency they want ease of use self-service in a digital auction to buy these products so i think that's the first thing and then the second thing is once we do that and we now have a really good product and we've got customers willing to help us uh get that product out to the masses we'll probably be ready to do another raise sometime this year now i know everybody says well we're in the middle of corona you know the venture capital community is very careful right now honestly devin i'm not seeing that i mean outside of being the ceo procurence i'm also an active angel investor my deal flow now is 20 more than it was 90 days ago i'm seeing more deals now because people are developing companies around covid and around this crisis and around the financial instability in areas that would have never gotten built 90 days ago so i'm seeing more deal flow now than ever and i do think when i look at my own company as a digital platform that can help with self-service ease of use speed to market help with remote workers how do you get connectivity for remote workers at home the timing on something like this could be great so i think that it's still hard to raise money it's never easy but that would be the other thing that i think is going to happen for us in the next six months once we get to to revenue okay no i think that that makes perfect sense so you know and i would say reflect even you know when i said i mentioned i do and i do some of the startups in small business but it folks signing of a non ip law side of patents and trademarks it was an interesting dichotomy in the sense that we had probably one or two months where things slowed down and it was a little bit uncertainty but now where we're at we're busier now than what we were pre you know free the pandemic and it just seems like you know it's an interesting i think that if you you have to be willing to anytime there's uncertainty in the market anytime there's a change in the market there's enough people or anything you look for the opportunities it's not that you take advantage of things but you look for people have chinks in the armor they have things that aren't being addressed and oftentimes when you know when there's something that changes the marketplace it reveals the chinks in the armor and if you're smart and you keep an eye out for and you know how to navigate and pivot it it can oftentimes put you in a better position than those that are just kind of waiting it out and are looking for those opportunities so i'm in complete agreement with you well as we reach towards the end of the podcast i always have a couple questions that i always hit on so we'll jump to those now so the first question i'll ask is what was the worst business decision he ever made i don't know who i'd call it the worst it's probably the thing i regret the most right now candidly is that i didn't do this 10 years ago is that i waited and i didn't make to take the opportunity to work for myself to be my own boss to control my own destiny um i have a brother an older brother who's been an entrepreneur for 30 plus years and i've always aspired to that and looked at him and gone i don't know if it's me i'm more the corporate guy and now that i've done it i just keep like hitting myself in the head going why did i wait so long this this is an unbelievable opportunity and an ecosystem that i think i can play in and do well um i just my biggest regret right now and mistake is i should have done that's okay because i still have some years ahead of me it's not just all gray hair and i've got enthusiasm for it so better late than never i guess is a good way to put it right no i think you know and that's a hard one that i think a lot of entrepreneurs you have a lot of people that want to be entrepreneurs or you know what you know the entrepreneur type of an individual and there are a lot i think you can always find excuses for why not to do whether timing's not good you know i've got i'm a father of four kids ages nine through four and to say go start a business everybody says well you can't start you know you know i need that security of working for another and i always looked at and said well yeah but i don't know that they're gonna be any more secure that i'm not getting laid off by them at least if i do it myself i may control my destiny and i know that it was my fault that i had to leave myself off so to speak but i think whether it's that or you can say oh now i'm getting close to retirement i don't want to mess up my retirement or you can say oh i'm just getting out of school i don't have the experience i always think there's something that you can hold you back or an excuse that you can make and yet i think to your point dive in when you dive in is the best way if you have that itch if you want to do it because you you can always you can always try it out and say hey it's not for me and i'll go back to the corporate life but you don't want to get to where you can't do it anymore to the end of the career to where you are and then you miss your open opportunity you always wish you could lurk back so i think that's you know what it is david it's um i just want to be free to do what i want i want to be able to do business with who i want when i want where what i want i i'm a big podcast guy obviously and um i was listening to a podcast by a guy named naval raven ken who's the founder of angel list this morning i'm a big fan of naval and i'm a member of angellist and what he was talking about is this this people that break away from corporate life and he said regardless of level when i was a vice president at one of the largest companies in the nation and i don't think it matters what level you at what he said is if you have to work for another company where they can tell you what time to be there what to wear and how to act then you're not free and i don't care what your title is and it's really true and now that i've had this other side of it and i just get the free decisions to take my time as i want and have conversations like this i just think this is a better way for me to spend the next the next phase of my career that's all hey you're preaching to the choir so i i've drank the same kool-aid you have so all right so now we're gonna go jump to the second question which i always ask which is so if you're talking to someone that's uh just getting into startups or small businesses just getting their feet wet what would be the one piece of advice you'd give them i think because i had to go through it um as a former operator that was very skilled in industry business etc i had to take a step back and almost say to myself i know i know a ton about that but i am a first time entrepreneur and there's a lot that i don't know so the biggest thing for me was i need to figure out how to be vulnerable and willing to ask people around me to learn to be open to learning every day to understand it's okay to say you know i've never written code how should i evaluate people that write code for my company so i don't get you know screwed how do i make sure i make good decisions on who i'm choosing and by being vulnerable and asking for help within the ecosystem i think it made my path and would make other paths for other entrepreneurs so much easier you have to be a little bit vulnerable and ask for help you can't take this attitude of i'm the smartest i know it all i'll just figure it out attitude of yeah i know i'm smart but there are people a lot smarter that have done this before and there's probably something to be learned there that will help me succeed so by being a little vulnerable i think you can just go faster and learn more no and i think that's a good lesson to learn even if you are the smartest person in the room and you you know the sage always goes you don't want to be the smartest than you and we want to surround yourself with smarter people but even if you are the smartest person in the room you still don't know everything and you don't have expertise and everything you don't have experience and everything and even and then let's take it even if you did have all of it you're not gonna be able to execute on all of it right you're not gonna be able to do it all on your own and so i think that there's a lot of times where you try and say either i gotta know it all or i gotta be able to do it all or i have to do it all and it's kind of the you know the type a personality the startup personalities you want to do it all you want to control it all and i think if you hold on to it so tight you're never going to get everything you need to accomplish so i think that's that's good words of wisdom well people want to or people want to reach out they want to connect up with you they want to use your product they want to check it out they want to invest in you they want to do any of the above or they want to work for you or they want to just pick your brain or any of them above or all of the above all the above what would be the best way to uh to reach out to your connect up with you can reach out to me on linkedin steve walsh on linkedin you can go to our website procurencewith2rs p-r-o-c-u-r-r-e-n-c-e dot com we're also up on all the social platforms but i'm a huge linkedin person i've got a pretty big presence there happy to respond to any request to connect and i always like to talk to other people in the ecosystem whether it's customers that need my help with service whether it's under other entrepreneurs they need help with their company or their product raising money i'm happy to try to to give as much as i get in this ecosystem it's really worked out well for me and i'm happy to do it for anybody else all right well i certainly invite everybody to reach out to you for any and all the above reasons and uh now for anybody that wants to uh come on until their journey on the podcast we also love to have you on so if you want to go to apply to be a guest on the podcast feel free to go to inventivejourneyguest.com and apply to beyond and don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you can get a notification of all the new uh episodes as they air and lastly if you ever need any help with patents and trademarks feel free to reach out to us we're always here to help at miller ip law well thank you again for coming on it's been a pleasure it's been fun to talk about your journey and i i'm excited to see where the the next six months or year takes you and in the meantime good luck with everything and thanks for coming on the podcast thanks dan thanks for having me stay safe [Music] you English (auto-generated) All Recently uploaded